greater good's dosage index

[stancaris]

Greater Good has the profile 7-5-8-0-0 with a dosage index of 4.00. However, Greater Good has Secretariat in his 3rd generation. Dr. Roman classified Sec as an Intermediate-Classic chef. However, Werk and his associates classified Sec as an Intermediate-Solid chef. If we use Werks designation Greater Goods profile changes to 7-5-6-2-0 and his dosage index now becomes 3.00. Could it be that Greater Good got some stamina from Sec? We will learn the answer to this question perhaps when Greater Good travels in a 9 furlong prep race down the road and if he does well in that kind of prep maybe even the Derby winner's circle is not that far fetched. After all, Werk (Owner-Breeder Magazine) is a major thoroughbred consultant on breeding and his classification of Sec as an I-S chef de race merits some consideration.

[Sam]

Werk and his associates classified Sec as an Intermediate-Solid chef.

No, he doesn't.

Jack does NOT 'reclassify' chefs that already have a designation. Secretariat is an I/C ... Princequillo is the I/S.

Actually, Jack doesn't do anything with that part of the program .. Roger does.

[stancaris]

I am almost 100% sure that Owner -Breeder magazine listed Secretariat as an I-S chef de race in contrast to Dr.Roman's designation of I-C. How can we get a list to clear this up, that is a list of classifications from Owner Breeder which is different slightly than Roman's list?

[Sam]

I am almost 100% sure that Owner -Breeder magazine listed Secretariat as an I-S chef de race in contrast to Dr.Roman's designation of I-C. How can we get a list to clear this up, that is a list of classifications from Owner Breeder which is different slightly than Roman's list?

Trust me, they don't.

I used to work for them after all. If you have an issue that has Sec listed as an I/S, I can assure you it was a typo.

If you don't believe me, go to www.werkhorse.com, sign up for the enicks, do a nick using Tinners Way (a son of Secretariat) and it'll show Sec is an I/C.

[stancaris]

I have found in my files a 3 page chef de race list published by Owner Breeder on Feb 23 1999. In that list there are several chefs with the code next to their name --for example Caerleon given a Classic code (C) and O-B which means Caerleon is a chef de race recognized by Owner Breeder and is not recognized by Dr. Roman. Nearctic is a Brilliant chef but only recognized as a chef by Owner Breeder. Secretariat is an I-S chef only recognized that way by Owner Breeder. Since they have listed Sec with an O-B to the left of his name and an I/S to the right of his name I really doubt that this is a typographical error. Perhaps you could look into the pedigree where you say you saw Sec listed as an I-C. Was this pedigree one of DR. Romans or Owner Breeder?

[Bill from WA]

I have Greater Good with a Conduit Profile of 5-7-2-5-3 (12/8) and an Index of 1.46. Only one horse in the last 20 years has won the Derby with an Index over 1.40 (Strike The Gold with 1.56). The aptitudinal influence of Bill And Coo, Secretariat's conduit, is Professional. No horse with fewer than 10 stamina points (only 2 in the past 20 years) that had 3 or less "P" ponts, has won the Derby. Going back to 1984, the lowest Index has been Unbridled with 0.56. All of the derby winners in that time had at least 8 stamina points (S/P), only 2 had fewer than 10. Charismatic (8), and Strike The Gold (9). Additionally, all of the winners in the sampling had at least one S or P contribution within the first 2 generations.

Bill

[stancaris]

Very interesting: Bill: Is the material in your above post in your book?

[Bill from WA]

Hi Stan

A lot of the data that produced the above information is in the book, and all of it can be worked out by using the book and a little research. I'm working on another book that will be directed toward the application of the profiles for handicapping purposes.

Bill

[Sam]

I have found in my files a 3 page chef de race list published by Owner Breeder on Feb 23 1999. In that list there are several chefs with the code next to their name --for example Caerleon given a Classic code (C) and O-B which means Caerleon is a chef de race recognized by Owner Breeder and is not recognized by Dr. Roman. Nearctic is a Brilliant chef but only recognized as a chef by Owner Breeder. Secretariat is an I-S chef only recognized that way by Owner Breeder. Since they have listed Sec with an O-B to the left of his name and an I/S to the right of his name I really doubt that this is a typographical error. Perhaps you could look into the pedigree where you say you saw Sec listed as an I-C. Was this pedigree one of DR. Romans or Owner Breeder?

Look, I don't know what to tell you other than you are looking at a 6 year old issue of a magazine.

Like I said, I WORKED of them. I KNOW for a fact they do not reclassify horses. It would serve absolutely NO purpose other than to create confussion. They CAN'T reclassify Roman's work, that would be copyright infringement.

Like I said, if you don't believe me then go to Werk's site, open a free enicks account, do a nick with Tinners Way and check it out for yourself.

Secretariat is listed, by Werk and Roman, as an I/C.

End of story.

[Sam]

I just figured out what the problem is.

In 1999, Secretariat had not as yet been recognized as a chef by Roman.

Horses that Werk feels SHOULD be chefs and are not yet classified as such earn "Q point" and that list you are looking at is an OPINION of what Werk THOUGHT Secretariat would be classified as. When Roman finally recognizes a chef, Werk goes by Roman's classifications. They DO NOT arbitrarily reclassify Roman's work. If a horse has a chef rating, that is what Werk uses. Secretariat did not have a rating in 1999 (and you really shouldn't rely on 6 year old data).

IOW, Kris S is not yet recognized by Roman as a chef (and may never be) but Werk does give him "Q points" and I believe considers him a Classic (if not Professional) influence. Should Roman decide Kris S. is an Intermediate influence, THAT will be his designation in the Werk system from that point on as well.

[stancaris]

You said that Secretariat did not have a chef status in 1999. I have a three page file from Owner Breeder. comcheflist.html which clearly shows Secretariat as an I-S chef and to the left of his name are the capital letters O-B which means not recognized by Dr. Steven Roman. Perhaps Owner Breeder classified Sec first as an I-S and then Roman reclassified him later on. Anyway you look at it, this list was published on Feb 23rd 1999 with the above chef rating to Secretariat. (not a Q rating like you said above and not a projected chef rating either).

[stancaris]

Also on this chef list above are two classifications for Round Table. Dr. Roman has Round Table as a Solid chef and Owner Breeder has him as an I-S chef. Romans classification is NOT recognized by the Owner Breeder Advisory Committee on dosage and Owner-Breeder's ranking of Round Table as an I-S is not recognized by Dr. Roman. So these two factions have slightly different designations to the same stallions. Which came first I really do not know but there are two different ways that Round Table is classified depending on which you look at--Dr. Roman's designation of a Solid chef or Owner Breeders status as an I-S chef.

[Sam]

I feel like I am arguing with a wall.

Stan, for the LAST TIME. You are looking at OLD DATA and arguing with someone who worked for Werk.

Secretariat WAS NOT A CHEF according to Roman in 1999. Werk MAY have had him listed as an I/S in 1999, but when Roman gave Secretariat I/C Chef status, Werk followed suit and uses Roman's rankings. Werk's ratings are NOT gospel if the stallion has not received chef status from Roman. They are merely a projection of what they feel the sire SHOULD be and WILL CHANGE once the sire gets chef status from Roman. You do realize that Werk's ratings are meant to be a supplement to Roman's ratings and NOT an opposing system, don't you?

Werk MAY have had him listed as an I/S in 1999, he is NOT an I/S now.

Your list is OLD AND INCORRECT for 2005. Throw it away and get a new one.

I'm sorry you are too stubborn to admit you are wrong and I'm REALLY sorry you are too stubborn to go to Werk's site and check it for yourself.

Bottom line is in the year 2005 Secretariat is an I/C chef according to Roman and Werk.

If you don't want to go to their website and check for yourself, then CALL THEM and ask what they have him listed as. The office is closed today, but the number is 510/490-1111.

[st. louis kid]

Who cares, dosage is a crock. Completely subjective and serves very little purpose in thoroughbred analysis.

[steve]

AMEN ! St Louis Kid