Sound, Hard Knockers

General on-topic discussion.

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griff
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Postby griff » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:33 am

Joltman

i run my horses in claiming races and often times I am number 11, 12 or 13 in a 10 horse field; i.e., I think we have all the clamers we need.

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winds
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Postby winds » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:33 pm

Just because a horse is in a claiming race doesn't always mean it's hurting. If it's been running up the track in alwc races you drop it. If it can't hit the board in mdn sp wt, you drop it where it can win, or at least have a chance. Trainers always think that if they did something different with a horse they can improve it. That's what makes the game. We need claiming races. Do I like losing a horse? no, but it's the game.

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Joltman
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Postby Joltman » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:05 pm

griff wrote:Joltman

i run my horses in claiming races and often times I am number 11, 12 or 13 in a 10 horse field; i.e., I think we have all the clamers we need.

griff


You run your horses in claiming races because that's all that's offered for lower level horses. What if CT offered an array of allowance type races for significant purse $ for NW2, 3, 4, nw of 1 this yr, 2 this yr, etc. instead of a $5kclaimer with the same purse. Which would you rather enter? If your horse was any good you would run it there, rather than a claimer with the same condition and price, because you wouldn't want to risk losing it. Especially true in situations where the horse might be better, but needs a couple of races or something. Or you want to try the turf. If there was a bottom level -say $2500 claimer, that had only few races written with low purses = take this horse off my hands please...

Something like this (all at the same track):

Allowance Class A - NW2 - Purse 45000
Allowance Class B - NW2 - Purse $30000
Allowance Class C - NW2 - Purse $15000
Allowance Class D - NW2 - Purse $7500
Claiming - NW2 - Purse $3500 Cl Price $2500
All with a variety of distances, gender, statebred, etc.

Trainers would put there horses where they thought they could win the most money = highly competitive. System would have to tweak purse structure so trainers would not 'milk the class'.

What this would do is tell the world that if you want to get in the game for real, you have to put up serious money - buy a yearling or breed something, or buy by private sale.

Now suppose that owners ONLY would allow their trainers to enter their horses in races like this, saying effectively, 'I think my horse is valuable enough to not race in the bottom claiming level where I risk losing it'. Their horses would not be perceived as so cheap and readily available that the claiming game supposes now. What you have effectively done is lower supply, which by definition raises the price (perceived value).

The reason why owners put their horses in claiming races is that

- that's their only option to race and make a buck = desperation - buyers market mentality
- they want/need to unload the animal
Run the race - the one that's really worth winning.

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Postby foothillsequine » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:29 pm

All good comments. I do have to question how we get these hard knocking horses out of studs who have only started a couple of times? What the heck is up with people standing studs who have only raced a couple of times? Personally, I don't quite understand it.

I have a mare that started over 70 times, her dam, started over 50 times. Both have made well over $100,000. Perhaps it's time, folks started to realize the mare line is equally as important as the sire line? Maybe I am way off base, but I do think that the dam is a VERY important piece of the equation in producing good racehorses.....

I personally would love to join a training co-op, and have 4 horses to contribute to the pool......
~Dare to Dream~

griff
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Postby griff » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:31 am

Joltman

What's to stop me from running my class a horse in a Class b allowance rac and picking up an easy $30k purse; or in a class c race and picking up a vry easy $15k purse?

Seconf where is the money coming from for the $45k and $30k purses.

CT is doing pretty good with purses, centainly better than Laurel or Mountaineer, but nowhere near the levels you propose..

I don't think the claiming system is broken and therefore should not be fixed, and certainly not fixed with an additional gaggle of experts that are going to tell me where I can run my horses.

griff

PS: And where is the money coming from to pay the gaggle of experts that will regulate your system??

g
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Joltman
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Postby Joltman » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:00 pm

The key to the conditions would be similar to what's done in claiming races now - nw in last 3 months, six months, year, etc. Those exclude 'hot' horses and keep someone from dropping in real easy. You could do something like Winners of class C in the last six months excluded. The harness guys use earnings - say something like nonwinners of $x in last 5 starts.

my numbers are all make believe, not reflective on any given track, although it wouldn't take much to create a rather tight set of fair conditions and purses that reflect a current track's offerings - it's just that the horses are not for sale. A system like this says basically - "I own this animal and its not for sale and I believe it can make me money. "

Actually, the gaggle of experts are already there - in the racing office. They are basically saying that your horses are only allowed to enter their races if you are willing to sell them - cheaper than what it costs you to feed and train them so you BETTER win when you do enter. What I am proposing is a gaggle of experts in the racing office offering the same races, but siding with owners and breeders to say these horses are not for sale and hence if you want a race horse, go and find one, buy one from one of the owners, or fork out the $$$ to breed one yourself. Lower supply increase price.

If the game was working so well, CT and the rest of the tracks would not be falling all over themselves trying to get in alternative gaming (cards, table games, etc.) to keep the racing product alive.

Owners/breeders in placing cheap prices on their horses say, basically, 'yes, I'll roll the dice, hope I hit a home run, and when I don't I'll readily take a financial pounding hoping someone picks up my horse in a cheap claimer. I'll take the pittance, pull more cash out of my pocket and try again.'

The alternative game is - "Yes, I'll roll the dice and try to hit a home run, but if not, I'll be happy to race this quality animal in a place, according to the conditions, where it can earn some money, and where I won't lose it because it's valuable, until I retire it or someone buys it, or I decide to unload it in the bottom level claiming race.'

Is it little wonder that we small time owners/breeders get frustrated in this game. The real gamblers in this business are the owners spending thousands a month, not the guy at the windows. Both are often unaware the chances of winning, long term are low, and get lower the longer you play the game. Rather they are gamblers - hoping for the home run from an animal that really has very little chance to deliver it.

A true business model works differently. It says, 'there is a profit to be made by hard work, smart decisions and getting together the right people, and doing the business in the right location'. The 'location' in this equation is the place where the business operates - the track sets up the races it offers - the environment where the business operates. If you have a bad location you will lose, despite having a good business model. My point in all of this is that much of the current model (where claiming races are the vast majority) is flawed, and may well collapse if little guys, running hard knockers, can't make it consistently and grow their businesses, their stables, their success and their incomes.
Run the race - the one that's really worth winning.

griff
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Postby griff » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:05 pm

There is no requirement that you run your horse in a claiming race, and there are plenty other races such as optional claiming, allownace and stakes rases. And the claiming racses run fro $5k to $50k and it's your choice if you put your horses in a claiming race and if you do it's your choice at what claiming level you run..

I like thefact I and not some committee decides where i run my horse.. The exception is stakes races and I think that process is fair and should not be tamped with by front office or back office "experts'

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Joltman
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Postby Joltman » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:53 am

alas, there are no claiming races for mid-level and lower class (not bottom) level horses. The lowest (starter allowance) assume you've all ready run at a low claiming price and these can come up tough.

It might be interesting if some of the historian types weighed in to tell us why claiming came into being in the first place. My guess is that in the days of bookies and far, far less regulation, there could be far more incentive to not win than to win (stiffing the horse). If the horse was decent, a claiming race had the caveat that if you didn't race for the purse, you would lose it.

I don't think those are the dynamics so much today.

jm
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Postby Shannon » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:23 pm

Joltman, I agree with you, there are a lot of trainers who don't WANT to lose there horse in a $5 or $10,000 claimer, but they would get anhilated in an optional claiming. I think the lower level ($15,000 and under) optional claiming races would be a hot ticket at a lot of tracks. And it's not as though you have to abolish ALL lower level open claiming races, just offer a fair option for those who want to keep their campainers.

Anyone know why this hasn't already been approached at ANY track? Is there a track in NA that offers optional claiming below $25 or $50,000? Or is there a solid reasonn it's not a valid option?
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Sysonby
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Postby Sysonby » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:58 am

When optional claimers are brought up, people do understand that the optional part involves conditions right? Some of those horses don't meet the conditions and therefore they are run for the tag.

I'm sure the reason that it is only seen in $25K up claiming races is that these races are a melding of allowance and claimers to make both races go. Usually the horses running for the tags can be the better bets because they have run through their conditions without necessarily being able to march up the allowance or stakes ladder.

in my experience, people who don't run horses are the ones most dismayed by claiming races. As far as I am concerned, I find the system works and keeps people honest in placing their horses. I run on a circuit when horsemen drop and jam to get wins especially since claiming has dried up. Seriously, if they had blanket protection, my claimers will be running against quasi stakes horses.

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TJ
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Postby TJ » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:55 am

At Calder they have an optional claimer NW1 O/T Mdn., clmg. or starter or claiming price 16,000. They've been writing it for years, but they're getting tough now as the pot reached $30,500 with a little help from the slots/poker room. The bad news is a 16,000 claimer gets to run for 30,000+, so it brings the big guns down here to take them.....Canani and Calabrese just moved in 2 months earlier than usual. TJ

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Joltman
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Postby Joltman » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:14 am

Sysonby wrote:When optional claimers are brought up, people do understand that the optional part involves conditions right? Some of those horses don't meet the conditions and therefore they are run for the tag.

I'm sure the reason that it is only seen in $25K up claiming races is that these races are a melding of allowance and claimers to make both races go. Usually the horses running for the tags can be the better bets because they have run through their conditions without necessarily being able to march up the allowance or stakes ladder.

in my experience, people who don't run horses are the ones most dismayed by claiming races. As far as I am concerned, I find the system works and keeps people honest in placing their horses. I run on a circuit when horsemen drop and jam to get wins especially since claiming has dried up. Seriously, if they had blanket protection, my claimers will be running against quasi stakes horses.


The origin of this discussion was related to the perception of devaluation of lower level, but sound hard running horses that must run at lower levels because they are not allowance let alone stakes caliber. But the claiming tag puts these horses up for sale, effectively cheapening investment of the person (Breeder - owner) who spent the big bucks up front to get the horse there - a chance to continue to benefit from their investment and years worth of work, save perhaps for a breeders bonus for state races. But if I have a Pa bred owned by a Fla owner who wants to see his horse run, even those funds are gone.

The idea was that the claiming races cheapen the perceived value of the same horses would be running against each other anyway, to fill what is now the delineated by $5k claiming tag, but could just as easily be delineated by some other means..

Is it little wonder that only the lure of the 'big horse' keeps people in the game, if they are getting killed financially just to get a horse to auction or sale and can't make a marginal profit based on pure numbers of horses bred or owned.

jm
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Postby Fireslam » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:54 pm

Sysonby, as usual, is spot on. Who here that is complaining about the current system actually races horses? The system as it is WORKS. There arent hundreds of horses claimed every day, there are very few. There are huge risks in claiming horses, even winning claiming horses. Ive been racing claiming horses for 25 years, and have yet to have one claimed from me. Im running a nice colt now in the $10K bracket, he's hit the board in over half his races...I WANT to get him claimed, I have a two year old I want to send in. He's pretty, sound, and makes money nearly every time. Only way I can get him claimed is if I drop him down lower, where someone can claim him and know they can win with him on the rise.

People complaining about claiming would be the people who have Fluffy at home in their backyard, they they just know is a Maiden Special Weight horse, at least. Wouldnt DARE put Fluffy or her sister Muffy in a claimer because everyone would want them and take them! So they run them MSW, get beat 20 lengths each time, but noooo, no claiming races, someone would TAKE them!

(Ask me how I know this......)

Monmouth saw some claiming this year, tho even yet not nearly as much as I thought there would be, since the purses are so high. As in other aspects of the sport right now, there just isnt much money for claiming.

And saying that the "lure of the big horse" is all that keeps horses in this game...thats baloney. I know many many people who have gotten in the game by getting a piece of a claiming horse, and had a ball! When the horse was claimed, they just got another one. Claiming is simply "selling". You put a price on the horse, and if someone wants him, they can buy him. But theres no vetting, no checking out beforehand, and no turning back once you drop the slip. It takes a brave soul to claim horses. I dont know about you, but I would NEVER spend $5,000 on a horse I couldnt vet or look at.

Its a great game, if you play.

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Postby Gallop58 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:53 pm

“Many forms of [Racing] have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that [Claiming] is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that [Claiming] is the worst form of [Racing], except for all the others that have been tried from time to time.
- Winston Churchill, 1947.
(Was Government and Democracy :D )

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Joltman
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Postby Joltman » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:59 am

With all the tales of woe coming out of places like Tx, maybe it's time to try something different, before entire segments of the industry are lost. Here in Va which has a great equine tradition from the 17th c. people will not get into a business which is guaranteed to lose them money if they just play it long enough. The internal financials are just not favorable for making a profit unless you are doing something very different from everybody else. The residual financial expense of a retired racehorse (claimer) who hasn't paid his way is yet another liability.

If the tough, hard knocker horses could actually be profitable during their careers, the business model would change.


jm
Run the race - the one that's really worth winning.