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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:07 pm 
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Maiden Special Weight

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Interesting.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:52 pm 
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kimberley mine wrote:
You have merit ratings and handicaps. Say rating 80, where a horse with a rating of 80 gets an impost of 120, over 80 goes up, and lower than 80 a lighter weight. You can also restrict a race to "no MR higher than 90."

It works very well overseas. There is no reason it can't work here, other than it's not the way things are done.


There, in a nutshell, is the answer.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:34 pm 
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Sophomore Sire
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Overhere (in europe) we have a lot downrated hcp,s which is working really well, startingfields with 18+ horses in it are quite normal.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:41 am 
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Even in NA, if you look at how the Harness racing industry structures their races, you have many opportunities to race your horse other than in claiming company. I've seen many harness fields which were NW7L or NW8L.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:49 am 
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Chef de Race: Classic

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Griff posted:
Quote:
I have an Argentine mare that started 64 times and retired sound with $213k in winnings..

Had a hell of a time getting her to settle. Finally found an article on breeding older maidens and emailed it to the Vet . . .


Griff, if you have a link to this article, please post it or PM me. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:32 am 
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Bear in mind that a lot of folks who enter their runners in claiming races would be more than happy to lose 'em. And for smaller owners, claiming a horse is a great way to get into the game with an established runner, without all the expense of starting a yearling or unbroke 2-year-old from the ground up. So much of the sport here hinges on claiming trainers, on the day-to-day bread-and-butter workings of the claiming game, I don't really see that changing.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:51 am 
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I agree wholeheartedly. Probably 95% of people racing in claiming races like how it is set up. Its a great way to sell a horse, or buy a horse. There isnt that much claiming that is done, especially nowadays. I can't tell you how many times I had wished I had a horse claimed. And the few times I had a horse claimed from me, I might have been sad....for a minute....until I checked my account. And Ive never claimed any back, tho I have gotten one back for free at the end of his career.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:24 am 
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I wasn't suggesting abolishing all claiming races - just turn them all into 'optional' claiming races.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:50 am 
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there are optional claiming races now, and also plenty who complain about the handicap system in Europe--see Bill O'Gorman's book.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:19 pm 
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there's another problem with claiming races.

Claiming races turn horses into commodities. Part of the value of sport is the sense of one owner vs another, or one city against another. Sports that have no 'loyalty' end up with disgruntled fans who form loyalties to the ones they follow then are greatly disappointed when the go elsewhere and become the 'enemy'.

There was a sense in the past of the great stables battling each other with their best stock, and the upstart that could climb the ladder and get into the big game.

big time claiming trainers often claim a horse in a race and dump into a cheaper raise (where permitted) and win - then lose the horse invariably. Easy come, easy go - take the money and run. Now a good claiming trainer can be a good horseman, but the game itself rarely develops any kind of following. When cheap claimers disappear, no one cares. That a horse could make $350k+ in 57 starts and claiming company - no one cares. the aforementioned horses are worthy of a following as an example of what thoroughbreds can do - win, remain sound, be competitive.

jm

jm

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 Post subject: this guy's amazing
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:38 pm 
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Talk about hard knockers...

Catlaunch

http://www.pedigreequery.com/catlaunch

Raced 2- 9 (still racing). 80 starts, 33 wins including 17 stakes wins (!), lifetime $838k in earnings.

OK so its Ohio state bred stuff, but still. Here is soundness, quality, running classic distances.

His dam, Skilaunch, has four other foals, all winners, 3 others over $100k with the same kind of durability. FF was French several generations back.

IMHO these are the horses that should get some attention - and even a following. I think it would be great if he got a shot in the BC Marathon. He might just get a piece of it.

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 Post subject: mares
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:36 pm 
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These are exactly the kinds of mares we should be breeding. I have bred some and are still racing the off spring. Very sound, pay their way, and, maybe one day a big horse comes along.

Breeding to stakes winners who retired hurt after 3-6 races lifetime makes no sense. That is what affects soundness much more than inbreeding to hyperion, etc. etc.

I say go for it!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:42 pm 
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tbr

If you've had success doing this, I think it would be interesting to see the business plan for racing these types. Are there any bloodhorse consultants out there that specialize in building these kinds of businesses?

Would certainly look different from the typical commercial operation - 'buy-high-and-hope-sell-low-and-mope' approach.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Joltman wrote:
tbr

If you've had success doing this, I think it would be interesting to see the business plan for racing these types. Are there any bloodhorse consultants out there that specialize in building these kinds of businesses?

Would certainly look different from the typical commercial operation - 'buy-high-and-hope-sell-low-and-mope' approach.


First, you'd need to decide what kind of record qualified a horse for inclusion into this group, and then extract the records of those who qualify.

Is this possible?

You could play with such data, and weight the wins and other placings according to class of race, distance, etc, and come up with a system to give those who raced the longest, farthest, soundest at the higher levels. This could be very interesting.


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 Post subject: p
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:22 pm 
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Some of the worst advice I received lo those many years ago, was to seek advice from agents.

Although there are some good people out there, they are agents, business people, who want to make money, and they will ALWAYS give advice that will make them money for sure and you money maybe. So, I say read, go to the track, and live with trial and error. You learn fast when your money is on the line.

As to the business plan, it is simple:

1) Keep a strangle hold on expenses, especially vets.
2) If they can't run get rid of them, fast.
3) train yourself or have a trainer you can absolutely trust.
4) Run where you can win. It is better to win 60% of $5,000 than 0% of $10, 000.
5) Everybody has to pay their way. (see #2).

If you follow that plan, then one way to get hard knocking runners is to breed hard knocking mares. Because so much of the expense is in getting to the track and in lay ups for injuries, soundness becomes very important to the bottom line.

And, have some fun.


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