Actually, judging by the produce records, the specific ones I'm thinking of are probably dead ... but for this exercise, let's say they aren't.
Here's a mare -- Graded Stakes winner, tough as nails. Dam was unraced, second dam is a multiple stakes winner.
First 4 foals all from different sires, none of them accomplish much of anything (cheap claimers. Best one has a record of 34-5-8-4 with $78,330 in earnings). All but one made more than 20 starts, but they rarely hit the board and most definitely not earning their keep. All were dirt horses and barely got 8 furlongs.
Next 4 foals all from the same sire. All but one make more than 30 starts and are fairly consistent in hitting the board. $500k, $170k, $68k and $6k (only made 3 starts) respectively in earnings -- definitely covering their costs. 2 can sprint, two go long. 2 like the lawn, 2 love the dirt.
Next three foals are all by different sires and are unraced (oldest is 3yo, youngest is a yearling)
Question one: Do you now take that mare back to the stallion she 'struck' with or do you take her to a sire in the same sireline?
IOW .. you know the stallion I'm talking about is Kissin Kris ... do you now take that mare (Hasty Pasty) back to him or do you send her to Arch/Prized/Action This Day etc since she has since shown an affinity for the Kris S sires (or at least one of them ... she has an unraced 2yo by You And I ... will have to see what happens there)?
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Part two:
Above mare has two full sisters (both younger).
One does not have a produce record and is unraced and the other appears to be in Kentucky, has been bred to some decent sires and not produced (best is a Fly Till Dawn colt with a 19-3-4-1 $25,893 record) with no foal of record since 2001.
Question two: Hypothetically speaking (assuming the two mares aren't dead) -- Is it worth a smaller breeders efforts to track down those two mares and breed them to the sire the full sister hit with or do you send them to a stallion from the same sireline, but a little cheaper?
IOW, send it to NY and breed to Adonis or to KY and breed to Old Kentucky Home.
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Part three (can you tell I'm in the mood for a nice looooooong discussion?)
There are 3 additional mares (two are unraced full sibs) by the same sire (Flying Paster) and out of mares by the same broodmare sire (In Reality) as the above examples. An '86 and the two full sibs are '92 and '93.
The '86 appears to be in Maryland, 5 foals from 4 sires .. none of any note (Best is a Double Negative mare with a 20-7-2-2 $124,270 record). Last foal was 1998 and was never bred to a Kris S sire.
Of the two full sibs -- the '92 mare has no produce record and the '93 shows 3 foals (none by Kris S sires) with nothing of note (never made more than 6 starts or $20k) and the last being a 2000.
Question 3: Is it worth the effort to track down one of those 3 mares and take it to a smaller Kris S. sire (Adonis, Old Kentucky Home, or Strategic Partner)?
Where're the mares?
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Where're the mares?
Last edited by Sam on Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sam,
1. We'll assume the mares in question are available to be bred.
2. We'll also assume that you are not asking of your own accord. i.e. these are not your mares.
3. Assume the breeder has the wherewithal to go to a similarly priced stallion as the one that worked well with the original mare.
Possible scenarios that might make sense:
If no pedigree knowledge or business acumen--take all three to the same stallion and see what happens; or take them to three different stallions from that bloodline.
Let price and geography help choose a stallion with similar bloodlines.
Try to pick apart what worked in that successful match, and attempt to beef it up a little. e.g. Adding Hail to Reason helped, consider adding a Hail to Reason line stallion whose dam's family has also nicked with mare's family. (a three-way nick).
Choose among similarly-bred stallions to try to supplement and/or complement the supporting characters from the stallion's and mare's families that might tie the major parties together.
1. We'll assume the mares in question are available to be bred.
2. We'll also assume that you are not asking of your own accord. i.e. these are not your mares.
3. Assume the breeder has the wherewithal to go to a similarly priced stallion as the one that worked well with the original mare.
Possible scenarios that might make sense:
If no pedigree knowledge or business acumen--take all three to the same stallion and see what happens; or take them to three different stallions from that bloodline.
Let price and geography help choose a stallion with similar bloodlines.
Try to pick apart what worked in that successful match, and attempt to beef it up a little. e.g. Adding Hail to Reason helped, consider adding a Hail to Reason line stallion whose dam's family has also nicked with mare's family. (a three-way nick).
Choose among similarly-bred stallions to try to supplement and/or complement the supporting characters from the stallion's and mare's families that might tie the major parties together.
Rocking H
Question 1:
Obviously it can't hurt to go back to the well. So you could try breeding back to Kissin Kris. But more importantly, IMO, I'd try to see if there was a trend in the conformation of Kissin Kris and the mare, and the resulting foals. It seems that this mare's greatest attribute is to throw durability. Most of her progeny ran a lot, even if it was mostly slow! I wouldn't just use any Kris S line sire and expect the same results. In other words, I wouldn't hesitate to use a different sire you might like for conformation, soundness, ability and price, as long as their lines weren't completely contradictory.
Question 2:
I don't subscribe to this theory. I wouldn't waste any time on the "poor little sisters" of a decent mare. With the info you have provided, there is little point in following up on those, IMO. There might be some commercial benefit to them having a page strengthened by their own GSW sister, but their current connections have obviously failed to capitalise, and even the most fickle bloodstock agent should be able to overlook any tenuous advantage that realistically offers.
Question 3:
Again, there are just too many decent and more promising mares out there than to bother, IMO. I'm not trying to be cynical, and you may have a vested interest in doing something like this. Just on the surface, to me, it doesn't look like a sound business decision. But if it's for cheap fun, why not?
Obviously it can't hurt to go back to the well. So you could try breeding back to Kissin Kris. But more importantly, IMO, I'd try to see if there was a trend in the conformation of Kissin Kris and the mare, and the resulting foals. It seems that this mare's greatest attribute is to throw durability. Most of her progeny ran a lot, even if it was mostly slow! I wouldn't just use any Kris S line sire and expect the same results. In other words, I wouldn't hesitate to use a different sire you might like for conformation, soundness, ability and price, as long as their lines weren't completely contradictory.
Question 2:
I don't subscribe to this theory. I wouldn't waste any time on the "poor little sisters" of a decent mare. With the info you have provided, there is little point in following up on those, IMO. There might be some commercial benefit to them having a page strengthened by their own GSW sister, but their current connections have obviously failed to capitalise, and even the most fickle bloodstock agent should be able to overlook any tenuous advantage that realistically offers.
Question 3:
Again, there are just too many decent and more promising mares out there than to bother, IMO. I'm not trying to be cynical, and you may have a vested interest in doing something like this. Just on the surface, to me, it doesn't look like a sound business decision. But if it's for cheap fun, why not?
Hasty Pasty's breedings for last two years:
2003 - Bred to: Service Stripe- foaled (3/26/2004)
2004 - Bred to - Fusaichi Pegasus -
2005 - Booked to - Info not available
Produce History: Hasty Pasty
Yr Name Sire Foal Date Clr Sx Stud Fee Comment
Hasty Pasty Flying Paster Apr 19 b
93 Sticky Bid Homebuilder Mar 29 ch g
94 Flying Reverence Lucky North May 20 b f
95 Hasty Flight Premiership May 21 ch c
96 Festy Festive May 11 b f
97 Hasty Kris Kissin Kris Jun 3 b g
98 Hasty Kiss Kissin Kris May 25 b f
99 Barren bred to Lost Soldier
00 Kissin Paster Kissin Kris Feb 14 b g
01 Flybykiss Kissin Kris Feb 21 b f
02 Half Forbidden Afternoon Deelites Apr 2 dk b/ c
03 Lulusgunnarodeo You and I Mar 12 dk b/ f
04 Unnamed Service Stripe Mar 26 dk b/ f
2003 - Bred to: Service Stripe- foaled (3/26/2004)
2004 - Bred to - Fusaichi Pegasus -
2005 - Booked to - Info not available
Produce History: Hasty Pasty
Yr Name Sire Foal Date Clr Sx Stud Fee Comment
Hasty Pasty Flying Paster Apr 19 b
93 Sticky Bid Homebuilder Mar 29 ch g
94 Flying Reverence Lucky North May 20 b f
95 Hasty Flight Premiership May 21 ch c
96 Festy Festive May 11 b f
97 Hasty Kris Kissin Kris Jun 3 b g
98 Hasty Kiss Kissin Kris May 25 b f
99 Barren bred to Lost Soldier
00 Kissin Paster Kissin Kris Feb 14 b g
01 Flybykiss Kissin Kris Feb 21 b f
02 Half Forbidden Afternoon Deelites Apr 2 dk b/ c
03 Lulusgunnarodeo You and I Mar 12 dk b/ f
04 Unnamed Service Stripe Mar 26 dk b/ f