Hindleg activity/muscular back, pedigree connection?

[cissiny]

Hi all,
Hope this is the correct sub-forum for this question?

Well, I'm coming from the "sporthorse world" (i.e. eventing, showjumping, dressage) but TBs has been the love in my life since I met a fantastic TB back in 1985. What I love about TBs (compared to "regular" Warmbloods) is their intelligence and sensitivity (like you think what you want to do and the horse responds, more feeling than strong aids). What I always look for is also a strong hindleg action, which I find is typical for good TBs (although not all TBs have that activity).

To my question - I would love to know about horses that you have seen that has that powerful hindleg activity, for me it's typically horses that keep a very muscular topline/back even when not in training (just by grazing in the fields). I'm sure it's a conformation thing, would love to see if there are any connections to the bloodlines?

I know that I have written a lot here about Fair Share and her descendants, the horse that was just "perfect" in my opinion was Lord Ever-so-sure (1978-2005), I've added a photo now (he's 22 or something at that photo, not ridden regularly and a bit thin after a snake bite and also tick infections, also standing in high grass which makes his legs look a bit short): http://www.pedigreequery.com/lord+ever-so-sure
And here's a photo (scroll down, it's "Plepla med Lorden") taken in 2005, he was 27 and not really in condition... http://www.korsektionen.horsabecksgard.se/KM%2005.htm

The interesting thing, that really got me into trying to find any living descendants of Fair Share, is that he has many similarities with the stallion Rubicon (by Siliconn, a full brother to the granddam of "Lorden"). I have seen videos but it's abvious also in photos that they seem to share this hindleg action: http://www.horse-gate.com/hengstregister/292.htm

What I would love to see is other TBs with this hindleg action, maybe from completely different bloodlines? So it's not at all about descendants of Fair Share (which I have a separate thread about).

Thanks a lot in advance!

Best wishes,
Cissi in Sweden

[aethervox]

The thing that struck me is that both horses descend from Nasrullah.

When William Nack wrote his biography, Secretariat: The making of a Champion, he included a quote by Bull Hancock, owner of Claiborne Farm where Bold Ruler stood.

But he [Secretariat] had what Bull Hancock regarded as a mark of quality in all the Bold Rulers that could run. "You can pick the Bold Rulers out on their conformation," Bull once said. "I see the same musculature as Nasrullah. They all had an extra layer of muscle beside the tail running down to their hocks. It is a good sign when you see it in a Bold Ruler. It means strength and speed."

[cissiny]

Thank you Aethervox!

The thing that struck me is that both horses descend from Nasrullah.

When William Nack wrote his biography, Secretariat: The making of a Champion, he included a quote by Bull Hancock, owner of Claiborne Farm where Bold Ruler stood.

But he [Secretariat] had what Bull Hancock regarded as a mark of quality in all the Bold Rulers that could run. "You can pick the Bold Rulers out on their conformation," Bull once said. "I see the same musculature as Nasrullah. They all had an extra layer of muscle beside the tail running down to their hocks. It is a good sign when you see it in a Bold Ruler. It means strength and speed."

That is very interesting, we use to jokingly call "Lorden" our "belgian blue" just because of that hindleg muscle... (Belgian Blues is a really sad thing though - not sure if they are known in the US, seems to be a mutation that causes extreme musles=more meat, those poor animals have horrible health issues...)

I have kept my eye on Mumtaz Mahal and her descendants for decades, very important among racehorses of course but I have also found that all her offspring has had an influence on sporthorse-breeding aswell.

Lorden does have Nasrullah 3x4, both times through sons. Just a feeling - isn't Nasrullah more a sire of sires? Not as "important" as broodmare sire? An interesting thing is that Nasrullah had a half-brother (Darbhanga, 1942 by Dastur) that was exported to Sweden. As for Darbhanga, he produced some very good sporthorse sires (TBs, he was only used in TB breeding I think) and I would say that his most important contribution is through his sons?

Thanks again for your very interesting post, loved that quote!

Best wishes,
Cissi in Sweden

[louis finochio]

Our tbs 40 years ago inherited long backs, from their hind end to their withers. In the present our breed is flodded with Storm Cats, stallions & mares. This has changed our conformation to short backs, bull dog blocky appearance.

Today in the US, every breeder is breeding for speed, this has caused major changes in our tb conformation. Because of this, our tb resemble those QH, where 40 years ago they inherited the conformation of their ancestors.

The stallions Pleasantly Perfect & Rock Hard Ten have old school conformation, long backs, & neck, long bodys & frame, as those stallions bring stamina into a mating.

[cissiny]

Hi Louis,

Thanks for your post!

Our tbs 40 years ago inherited long backs, from their hind end to their withers. In the present our breed is flodded with Storm Cats, stallions & mares. This has changed our conformation to short backs, bull dog blocky appearance.

Today in the US, every breeder is breeding for speed, this has caused major changes in our tb conformation. Because of this, our tb resemble those QH, where 40 years ago they inherited the conformation of their ancestors.

The stallions Pleasantly Perfect & Rock Hard Ten have old school conformation, long backs, & neck, long bodys & frame, as those stallions bring stamina into a mating.

Hmmm... The photo of Lorden here feels slinghtly misleading, I have never though of him as long-backed? Never liked long backs on horses? I'm afraid I have not looked at DI/CD for ages, but isn't Lorden more of a sprinter than stayer type? Or at least not a typical stayer?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/lord+ever-so-sure

Of course he had his weaknesses, but he did race (with wins) from age 2 to 5, after that he mostly competed driving. Very successful up to just below National Championship level, to give a hint here's a video of a cross-country driving: http://youtu.be/qmzPD8y-940
I think that he was the only TB competed in drving here for many years. Also a superb dressage schoolmaster and started compete jumping at the age of 22-23 or something. Won his last competition in driving in 2005, put down in Dec 2005 (just a few months before his 28th birthday). So - I would say that he was a strong and healthy horse?

Best wishes,
Cissi

[cissiny]

Here's a short video of a stallion that I really think has active hindlegs, of course he is "showing off" a lot, but otherwise a good example: http://www.horse-gate.com/video_hib/mov1497.m1v
And his pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sevillano2

I have unfortunately not seen Sir Shostakovich move, and I think he's more of a jumping stallion. Would love to use a WB stallion with Sir S as damsire on my sister's mare who has 3xSister Sarah... http://www.pedigreequery.com/sir+shostakovich

One of my absolute favorites though, don't think I've seen him move, is Laurie's Crusador, very influential dressage/eventing sire: http://www.pedigreequery.com/lauries+crusador

Just a few examples

Best wishes,
Cissi

[Crystal]

the stallion in your video (to me) is short/medium backed but has excellent propulsion in his hind end (the engine that moves his body). It is not something you see in typical TBs because they don't have that size of a hind end.

Tbs with shorter backs and bigger hind ends are normally considered "sprinters". The longer back, heavier bone, and somewhat lean hind end is what you would see in "stayers", turf horses or horses that are normally distance horses. Many different bloodlines do have ability to produce both types of horses but normally it's one or the other. But it's hard to say because of course it has to do with the conformation of the mare that was bred to the stallion.

Good luck in your research.

[cissiny]

Thanks Crystal for your very interesting post!

the stallion in your video (to me) is short/medium backed but has excellent propulsion in his hind end (the engine that moves his body). It is not something you see in typical TBs because they don't have that size of a hind end.

Tbs with shorter backs and bigger hind ends are normally considered "sprinters". The longer back, heavier bone, and somewhat lean hind end is what you would see in "stayers", turf horses or horses that are normally distance horses. Many different bloodlines do have ability to produce both types of horses but normally it's one or the other. But it's hard to say because of course it has to do with the conformation of the mare that was bred to the stallion.

Good luck in your research.

That goes quite well with my thoughts - the horses that I prefer tend to have shorter/normal backs (not too short and a more round than steep topline) and I have seen these more as sprinter types.

One of the most impressive horses I've seen was Madjoy, I saw him when he was like 3rd/4th level and he went all the way up to international GP. He's a Swedish Warmblood but with a TB dam (her only live foal AFAIK). His pedigree: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=madjoy&x=0&y=0
Funny enough, I really like one of my sister's stallions (long story, half-sisters, did not get in touch until about 14-15 years ago but share the passion for breeding and like the same bloodlines...) and as you can see they come from the same family: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10436343 (the family has produced numerous Intermediate/Advanced jumpers/eventers and his sister Epi was placed in the National Championships as 5yo and 6yo, also competed internationally)

Thanks again,
Cissi in Sweden

[Matchemforever]

I don't think what you're seeing in most horses that appear long is a too long back. Supposedly, the ideal sport-type horse is rectangular. A short back and long legs would suggest a square. Perhaps the term "rangy" would apply. The horse "stands over a bit of ground," I think the term used to be. Be careful also, of thinking a horse with a long shoulder with a lot of slope and a long hip (?) (From the point of the hip to the point of the buttock) is also too long in the back- that kind of horse can "cover a lot of ground" without being too long in the back.

While it all ultimately depends on the individual, I've been told that a horse with too short a back can have trouble being as flexible as needed over a jump and may have trouble bending when doing dressage.

There is, of course, too long. I had a gelding that I thought was a smidge long in the back but it was VERY strong. Broad and well muscled. The connection to the hind end is important and distance from last rib to flank also. He was close there and he was also deep through the loin area, not wasp waisted at all. He also was quite balanced because his neck had enough length. He had the right musculature and build. A horse carries you with his belly muscles, not his back, if trained properly. That is why as horses improve in dressage, they get deeper through the barrel in the loin area.

This horse you posted:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/lord+ever-so-sure
Reminded me a lot of Man O' War when I first looked at the picture. Now, there's nothing in the pedigree that would suggest a connection other than a few crosses of Rock Sand and Fairy Gold way back. So it's not genetic. But I think that MOW represents what the breed used to be. He had enough muscle but not too much. If you look at his pictures when racing he looks "rangy". (To me)

What I'm wondering, is if the lower placed knees and hocks of some of the TB's help them move better. You see them in MOW. But nowdays, seems like a lot of those joints are quite high up.