White TB's question for Jorge

[xfactor fan]

Jorge, or anyone else who wants to chime in:

In your research on white TB's, which all seem to be Sabino's, are there any other traits that go along with the total white expression?

This comes to mind after the thread just before the board crashed about Appaloosa type traits popping up like striped hooves, and mottled skin. With several people mentioning that their horses had these traits.

After reading some of the new research genetic research from the Appaloosa Project what they are finding is that the pattern is a combination of two sets of genes working together.
One is the Appaloosa roan gene, and the other is the pattern gene. Both have to be present for the pattern to appear.

Have you run across any indication that either the Appaloosa roan, or something like it has to be present to activate the complete expression of the Sabino white? Do any of the Sabino whites have striped hooves?


In Appaloosas, there seems to be several mutations of the blanket pattern, from small to covering the entire body. I'm wondering is the Sabino mutation in TB's has only a couple: low white leg markings, high white legs, and full body white.

So a horse could carry the Sabino pattern, and not express it until it meets up with the activator gene.

Anyone with thoughts on this matter?

[camohn]

In general from the horses I have looked at (a whole bunch, but probably not near as many as Jorge!) there does seem to be an "activation" factor or something recessive that kicks in as sometimes the colored horses come from a couple parents with little or no white.....although much more so from parents with a lot of white. On the old "appaloosa thread" Bimelech came up as often popping up on the pedigrees of those folks thought had Appy type markings. On the other hand I have a TB mare that has a funky eye (weird colored sclera on left eye), a few body spots and mottled skin on her udder and vulva areas. Just looked. DOES have striped hooves. She is bred to my sabino TB colt so anxiously awaiting to see what colors appear in March 2005! Her breeding is Hail To Reason/ The Axe for bigger names. (Pirate's Widow is registered name). I do have a white mare too. She has APHA papers, not TB, although she is 82% TB. Her dam is also white and is 94% TB. The white came from that side. She has 4 crosses to Royal Charger and the known sabino Annihilate Em is in her pedigree. She does have striped hooves and mottled skin on her udder/vulva as well. She has had 3 Paint foals. 1 was very sabino (50% white) and 2 were minimal sabinos; all from solid QH stallions. This will be her first time bred to a sabino stallion. Waiting to see the wrapping on that package too in April! Given the markings on the Hail The Pirates mare I just bought another Hail The Pirates mare too. No funky markings on this one, is a solid bay w/ one white heel, but at least she won 50K at the track so she comes with a better performance record. Most of the time the sabino is expressed better on chestnut than bay/black. The mare w/ the funky sclera is a chestnut. The solid is a bay...so hopefully the newbie has something lurking in the gene pool under the bay. If not she is still a really nice mare.

[xfactor fan]

What a lot of great information!

It sure sounds like from the breeding record of your white APHA mare that there are two independent genes working.

" I do have a white mare too.
She has APHA papers, not TB, although she is 82% TB. Her dam is also white and is 94% TB. The white came
from that side. She has 4 crosses to Royal Charger and the known sabino Annihilate Em is in her pedigree. She
does have striped hooves and mottled skin on her udder/vulva as well. She has had 3 Paint foals. 1 was very
sabino (50% white) and 2 were minimal sabinos; all from solid QH stallions. "

If this follows the Appaloosa model, this mare would be have two distinct size sabino genes. One large and one small. Was the foal that was 50% white, a black factor horse or a chestnut?
The other thing the Appaloosa Project was able to confirm was that there are modifiers that either enhance or supress the white markings. Chestnuts seem to carry the plus modifiers, and Dark Horses, Black, Bay, Seal Brown carry the minus version.

Do you know what kind of hooves the three foals have?

This would be very helpful to color breeders if there were markers that you could eyeball.

Thanks for being willing to share the information.

[camohn]

Genetically the white mare is a chestnut as her base color. All 3 of her foals are chestnut. I did not own her for the first 2 foals, just have pics of them povided by her previous owner, and I bought the mare in foal with the 3rd foal, now a weanling. I know the sire of this foal was palomino w/ minimal white. The sire of 1 of the other foals was solid black.(That would be the other minimal filly). Not sure about who the sire is of her first and most colorful foal. I have not looked closely at the feet of the filly. I'll look at feeding time. With the minimal sabinos I have noticed they frequently have a colored dot inside the white blaze or scalloped edges on them. Ones with white socks often have the dark "ermine spots" in them. [/img]

[Jorge]

Dear Xf & Camohn,

The topic you are both posing is a fascinating one. Aside from the content appearing on your truly's site, which is open to the public at:

http://www.geocities.com/thoroughbredpr

I highly recommend reading the following article, since I agree with its content practically 100% percent. The name of this article is
"A Lighter Shade of Red" by Frank Holmes. You can enjoy it at:

http://www.painthorsejournal.com/archiv ... oDec98.pdf

This article is an obligated reading for anyone entering into these Sabino topics.

Remember that the sabino pattern (not a gene yet) is very unpredictable and according to world authority, Dr Phil Sponenberg, it looks like the combination of several (let's call it) patterns. The marathonic discipline by yours truly of gathering this legion of sabino cases is, in my opinion, proving that Dr Sponenberg is right. Whener you see the names of Northern Dancer, Hyperion, Turn-to, Royal Charger, Mahmoud, Teddy, Peter Pan, Son-in-Law, and Djebel you can expect wonderful things.

I am trying to be concise here but this is a topic that requires examining a good deal of pedigrees and pictures in order to be a believer. But don't be afraid to believe that the sabino pattern is a well proven reality.

Try mixing these lineages and you will see.

Best regards, Blessings,

[xfactor fan]

Thank you Jorge, loved the Paint Horse article, lovely photos.

[Nancy T]

Speaking of Wht TB's anyone have any updates on the white fox? has he run yet?

[Jorge]

Dear Xfactor (and collaborators),

You are quite welcome.

As per the Appaloosa pattern and its relation to whites my studies have taught me that everything in the realm of white markings and patterns is friendly among each other. This not may not necessarily sound too scientific but somehow all these patterns share some common affection, At least from a Thoroughbred pedigree perspective. That's all I can say.

For example sabinos and rabicanos tend to share certain common names. The same goes for the appaloosa-type Thoroughbreds. But then someone may say "yeah, but all Thoroughbreds share various common ancestors". Then I say: absolutely, you are right, but my files betray that certain lineages are suggestively present on certain patterns. After everything has been said, the lesson is that if you look closely and believe that there is a great possibility --not mere wishful thinking-- you will be convinced that there is some sort of "frienship" between all these patterns.

Remember that we are just enthusiasts and avid observers. We don't ever pretend to be experts on the field. No way since this topic and genes are great foolers of the connoisseurs.

Best regards, Blessings,

[camohn]

I am anxiously awaiting to see how colorful our 2005 and 2006 crops will be. Boomer (Wild By Design) is a minimal sabino overo. For TB foals in 2004 (2005 crop) he was bred to Miss Annihilator (solid black /bay mare w/ teenie star for only white), Cerene (rabicano), and Pirates Widow (mare w/ funky Appy type traits mentioned above). In 2005 his book so far is 2 sabino mares (1 Sunnys Halo mare w/ bald face and 1 Hoist The Flag mare w/ belly spot), 1 rabicano Storm Cat mare, My Blue Eyed Baby (bald faced AND blue eyed mare), Nashua's Tune (solid bay w/ one white heel), and Ride The Cat (solid chestnut mare/ Northern Dancer granddaaughter).

[camohn]

Okie dokie. I went and looked at everyone's feet at breakfast time. Wild By Design (the TB stallion), the minimal sabino weanling filly, the white mare and the Appy-ish TB mare all have striped hooves. Cerene, the rabicano TB mare here to be bred to "Boomer" was supposed to leave last weekend but didn't so I looked at her too. She also has striped hooves. The solid bay mare does not. I don't think it entirely has to do with white legs either. The filly has one white stocking, but has striped hooves on the feet that do not have the white leg. Pirates Widow has striped hooves but has NO white on her legs. My daughter's pony gelding is also an AQHA cropout sabino. He has a blaze w/ 2 chestnut spots in the center (thus his registered name of Two Spot Doc!), a white lower lip, 2 rear stockings w/ ermine spots and yes, he has stripey hooves too. So...among my small sample here spanning sabinos of 3 different breeds (TB/APHA/QH), solids and rabicanos so far the stripey hoof theory holds up. For what it's worth, the pony gelding and the weanling filly are related. The QH sire of the filly is bred Doc Bar and Freckles Playboy and the ponys dam is bred the same. We didn't end up with either of those 2 on purpose. The white mare came already in foal to the QH....we bought her to breed to Boomer. I didn't care what color pony we got for my daughter. All I cared was that it was a nice kidsafe critter. Just a bonus he fits right in with the rest of the spotted pasture!