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 Post subject: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:23 pm 
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First and Second in the Belmont did not compete in either of the other two triple crown races and 3rd and 4th did not go to the Preakness. Kind of like going to the Superbowl without having to earn it. I agree 100 percent with CC's Owner.


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:38 pm 
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I totally don't.

I think in order for the horse to be a "great" champion, if you will, they win regardless. They win despite the gruelling contest. They win over freshened horses.

Look how many other horses have been close and not won the Triple Crown: Spectacular Bid, Pleasant Colony, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Silver Charm, Real Quiet, Charismatic, Funny Cide, War Emblem, Smarty Jones, Big Brown and I'll Have Another. Some of these horses are considered some of the best horses in the last century. And they didn't do it.

Tonalist was sick and had some setbacks that caused him to not make the Derby. They did right by him, to rest him, and point him to the race. Would you prefer if they had pushed him and had him run like Ride On Curlin (eased from bleeding and flipped palate)?

You know another horse that won the Peter Pan and Belmont, after missing the first 2 legs because of a setback??? AP INDY.


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:12 pm 
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Cree wrote:
I totally don't.

I think in order for the horse to be a "great" champion, if you will, they win regardless. They win despite the gruelling contest. They win over freshened horses.

Look how many other horses have been close and not won the Triple Crown: Spectacular Bid, Pleasant Colony, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Silver Charm, Real Quiet, Charismatic, Funny Cide, War Emblem, Smarty Jones, Big Brown and I'll Have Another. Some of these horses are considered some of the best horses in the last century. And they didn't do it.

Tonalist was sick and had some setbacks that caused him to not make the Derby. They did right by him, to rest him, and point him to the race. Would you prefer if they had pushed him and had him run like Ride On Curlin (eased from bleeding and flipped palate)?

You know another horse that won the Peter Pan and Belmont, after missing the first 2 legs because of a setback??? AP INDY.


Where's the "like" button?


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:17 pm 
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Coburn may have just spelled the demise of the Triple Crown as we know it, and it is my opinion that any change in the format reduces the accomplishment. As Paul Lo Duca said, the last three winners of the Triple Crown were Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed and California Chrome simply isn't in that class.


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:22 pm 
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Sour grapes. I understand heat of the moment. But when you're on national TV, show some class.


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:26 pm 
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So sour they were pretty much raisin quality.


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:30 pm 
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Cree wrote:
I totally don't.

I think in order for the horse to be a "great" champion, if you will, they win regardless. They win despite the gruelling contest. They win over freshened horses.

Look how many other horses have been close and not won the Triple Crown: Spectacular Bid, Pleasant Colony, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Silver Charm, Real Quiet, Charismatic, Funny Cide, War Emblem, Smarty Jones, Big Brown and I'll Have Another. Some of these horses are considered some of the best horses in the last century. And they didn't do it.

Tonalist was sick and had some setbacks that caused him to not make the Derby. They did right by him, to rest him, and point him to the race. Would you prefer if they had pushed him and had him run like Ride On Curlin (eased from bleeding and flipped palate)?

You know another horse that won the Peter Pan and Belmont, after missing the first 2 legs because of a setback??? AP INDY.


Every Triple Crown winner that went before Chrome won against horses that skipped one or more legs. That's just part of the nature of the challenge. I have seen this bellyaching over "fresh horses" for over 30 years now and to me it reflects either ignorance of the history of the Triple Crown or a blind desire to have someone finally win the title even if it means less than it did before.

Considering that we have had several Derby-Preakness winners since Spectacular Bid (the victim of a hoof infection and an atrocious ride) who probably could have swept the Triple with a little more luck or a better ride, I don't think that it has become impossible for a horse to win the Triple Crown as it now stands. It is certainly harder when a horse has to face more rivals throughout the series, but that's life when you also have larger foal crops than prevailed before the last couple of decades of the 20th century. Whether modern training methods are as effective in preparing a horse for the Belmont distance after a rugged campaign is a good question. The other question I would have is whether the rampant use of race-day medications, particularly furosemide, is a factor; I certainly don't think it's any coincidence that the average number of starts per horse has gone down dramatically since medication rules were liberalized.

Alan Porter has also brought up the hypothesis that while improvement of the top horses of the breed has flattened, improvement of the average Thoroughbred has not, meaning that there is less of a spread in ability between the best horses and their lesser cousins. Porter's reasoning is that if the best horses do not have as much of an edge in talent as they used to because of the "floor" of the breed rising to meet a flat "ceiling," then the best horses must run harder in more of their races in order to win, making each effort more taxing than the average race by a top horse in days gone by. Make what you will of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:49 pm 
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After watching this years Classics and hearing the classless tirade California Chrome's owner went into after he got beat because a horse entered the Belmont Stakes who didn't run in the Derby?? They are lucky Tonalist was sick and had foot issues, as he was preparing for the Wood Memorial, in order to secure his Derby berth. After watching what Tonalist did today, California Chrome's connections should be counting their lucky stars Tonalist didn't make the Derby or the Preakness. TJ


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:53 pm 
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In addition to all the reasons given by TJ for the difficulties that the current thoroughbred population has in winning the Triple Crown, I would add the constant expectations of the breeding/racing community that sprint pedigrees will produce classic winners.

If we keep exporting and ignoring our few remaining stamina influences, we certainly won't see another Triple Crown winner.


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:25 pm 
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geowarrior wrote:
In addition to all the reasons given by TJ for the difficulties that the current thoroughbred population has in winning the Triple Crown, I would add the constant expectations of the breeding/racing community that sprint pedigrees will produce classic winners.

If we keep exporting and ignoring our few remaining stamina influences, we certainly won't see another Triple Crown winner.



This but one of the issues that gets very little attention. There is very little interest in races of >9f with the exception of the Triple Crown and Breeders Cup. On any given day at most tracks, the HUGE majority of races are < 1 mile. Many cards have just one 4 1/2 - 6 1/2f race after another.


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:27 pm 
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TJ wrote:
After watching this years Classics and hearing the classless tirade California Chrome's owner went into after he got beat because a horse entered the Belmont Stakes who didn't run in the Derby?? They are lucky Tonalist was sick and had foot issues, as he was preparing for the Wood Memorial, in order to secure his Derby berth. After watching what Tonalist did today, California Chrome's connections should be counting their lucky stars Tonalist didn't make the Derby or the Preakness. TJ



The best part of Coburn's rant was the interaction and reaction between him and his wife....did anybody notice that? :lol: It lightened the very somber mood at my house.


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:42 pm 
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I did see that. It was like Oh My God, I'll never live this down.


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:11 pm 
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She had been pulling on his arm or kicking him or something and at one point he kind of brushed her off....then turned around and said something to her and then she responded with a VERY exaggerated eye roll :roll: . She had been trying to get him to stop or at least modify his rant.....unsuccessfully.


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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:18 am 
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ct2346 wrote:
Sour grapes. I understand heat of the moment. But when you're on national TV, show some class.


No class is still a class...... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Empty victory ?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:44 am 
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Maybe it was my iced tea but I saw more horses's asses than horses on my TV screen. It's a little frightening to agree with Dublino, but I couldn't agree more this time.

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