Ok - I am just goint to rant for a moment - so be warned. This weekend we shipped some horses up to Indiana Downs for some friends who were racing. With the on-going quarantine in the ship-in barn there were not enough stalls for everyone shipping in. So, if you were in a late race you were stuck in portable corral pens in the parking lot. The problem was that it was HOT Saturday and these horses had NO SHADE. The were forced to bake in the sun all afternoon and evening. The pens were set on the side of a small hill, so if one decided to set his rump against the back it could conceviably tip over.
This was so unfair for these poor horses. I cannot believe that the horseman in Indiana and the racing staff consider this acceptable treatment for the ship-in horses and trainers. After dusk it was so dark in the parking lot that we needed to hold flashlights so the trainer could wrap the horses legs. The quarantine has been in effect for weeks now. Certainly they could have found a tent and run out some electricity (not that there is electricity in front of the stalls in the ship-in barn, so trainers don't bother to bring a fan). After baking all day the horse ran very poorly and the trainer subsequently pulled his mare out of an upcoming handicap race.
How can Indiana expect to fill races when this is the treatment that horses and trainers get? I personally will not be racing my horses in Indiana anymore. I will certainly discourage our friends from taking horses up there. If they cannot even afford shade for the horses - what other corners are they cutting? I found it deplorable. End of rant.
Indiana Downs
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
Sounds absolutely Terrible. I probably would have packed my horse back in the trailer and left.
Along the lines of another rant. Because of a pissing contest with the Fairgrounds, the State of Kentucky is considering requiring a 150-day health certificate for All Horses. Period. No exceptions. This would create an onerous burden on all the parents of all those kids who haul here and there to shows, etc., not to mention all the racing stock that hauls around the state and into Ohio and Indiana... currently you only have to have a Coggins. You would end up needing three health certs in each year -- not just the expense but also the danged inconvenience!
Along the lines of another rant. Because of a pissing contest with the Fairgrounds, the State of Kentucky is considering requiring a 150-day health certificate for All Horses. Period. No exceptions. This would create an onerous burden on all the parents of all those kids who haul here and there to shows, etc., not to mention all the racing stock that hauls around the state and into Ohio and Indiana... currently you only have to have a Coggins. You would end up needing three health certs in each year -- not just the expense but also the danged inconvenience!
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
If they were my horses I definetely would have packed up and left. We had 2 trainers with us - one wanted to go and one wanted to stay. So, we stayed. The one who wanted to stay won his race (QH), the one who wanted to leave ran far back (TB). Either way it was very disappointing to watch them bake all day. We positioned the trailer as best as we could to try and give them shade, but the sun was too high for most of the day. As I said - I will not be racing in Indiana until some management changes are made.
CS wrote:If they were my horses I definetely would have packed up and left. We had 2 trainers with us - one wanted to go and one wanted to stay. So, we stayed. The one who wanted to stay won his race (QH), the one who wanted to leave ran far back (TB). Either way it was very disappointing to watch them bake all day. We positioned the trailer as best as we could to try and give them shade, but the sun was too high for most of the day. As I said - I will not be racing in Indiana until some management changes are made.
CS,
I certainly empathize with your angst. However, even here, at a cushy ranch in So. Cal, there are dirt paddocks (little to no grass) with NO SHADE/shelter, whatsoever! At Golden Eagle (home of the late Champion, Best Pal) to name just one, I saw nothing but those kinds of pastures. (Unless they keep them hidden somewhere.) When I mention to people (trainers, owners, etc.) that it seems cruel for them to have no shade or grass to cool off in, they just tell me, "they're use to it". That response really burns my butt!!!! The poor horses can see shade and grass, but the horse has none! I would definitely not allow my horse to be imprisoned in such conditions. Some people actually pay good money for such conditions.
The horse that I shipped in to race and the others that I personally know of got into stalls on site and haven't had a problem. I haven't heard any other complaints... in fact, I've heard several good things about the way that they were able to only miss one race day, the compensation they're extending to the horses stuck in quarantine, etc.
As you know, there is only about 1 1/2 weeks left of the meet, so I don't know how much extra expense they will want to throw out there, especially since our purse money has been cut effectively in half and slots didn't go through again, but I was under the impression that everyone really jumped up to the plate and did what needed to be done to carry this meet to the end.
I don't know how to respond to your comment about other "corners being cut" because I really don't know what you're implying. However, you are well aware of the purse slices, withholding of signal, etc. that Indiana Downs faces. They are also a new track and I will be the first to admit that they've made a lot of errors, but each year it gets a little better (as opposed to some tracks that seem to worsen with time.) Sure, there are horses from Kentucky, Illinois, Ohio, etc. who ship in, but as with anything I would imagine each trainer has to weigh their options. I'm a bit surprised at some of the horses that still ship in at all. I mean, 5 years ago there was a reason... the purses were decent. But now the purses are much smaller and people should be able to race much closer to home for more money! But, to each his own... everyone should race only where you feel comfortable.
There are horror stories surrounding almost all tracks, and if nobody raced where someone wasn't happy, that would be the end of racing. I'm not downplaying the complaints that CS made, I'm just surprised that with all the talk that I've personally heard among the horsemen who are involved in Indiana Downs racing every day, both stabled and ship-ins, I haven't heard these complaints.
I'll be at a meeting tomorrow night where there will be HBPA rep's, so I'll listen to the reports and see what they have to say, and I'll be sure to bring up your concerns and see what I can find out. Maybe I'll learn something new.
As you know, there is only about 1 1/2 weeks left of the meet, so I don't know how much extra expense they will want to throw out there, especially since our purse money has been cut effectively in half and slots didn't go through again, but I was under the impression that everyone really jumped up to the plate and did what needed to be done to carry this meet to the end.
I don't know how to respond to your comment about other "corners being cut" because I really don't know what you're implying. However, you are well aware of the purse slices, withholding of signal, etc. that Indiana Downs faces. They are also a new track and I will be the first to admit that they've made a lot of errors, but each year it gets a little better (as opposed to some tracks that seem to worsen with time.) Sure, there are horses from Kentucky, Illinois, Ohio, etc. who ship in, but as with anything I would imagine each trainer has to weigh their options. I'm a bit surprised at some of the horses that still ship in at all. I mean, 5 years ago there was a reason... the purses were decent. But now the purses are much smaller and people should be able to race much closer to home for more money! But, to each his own... everyone should race only where you feel comfortable.
There are horror stories surrounding almost all tracks, and if nobody raced where someone wasn't happy, that would be the end of racing. I'm not downplaying the complaints that CS made, I'm just surprised that with all the talk that I've personally heard among the horsemen who are involved in Indiana Downs racing every day, both stabled and ship-ins, I haven't heard these complaints.
I'll be at a meeting tomorrow night where there will be HBPA rep's, so I'll listen to the reports and see what they have to say, and I'll be sure to bring up your concerns and see what I can find out. Maybe I'll learn something new.
**************************************
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
Indiana Downs
CS,
The situation at Indiana Downs could have very easily ended the meet save for the cooperation between the track and horsemen. So, while the ship-in accomodations for the late arrivals are not ideal, there was significant effort to put together a game plan that provided an opportunity for people to run in the first place.
Owners of all quarantined horses are being compensated. Local trainers with stalls at the track, who had other local housing options, gave up their stalls to provide for horses to ship in. And, one local owner/trainer donated the portable stalls that you referenced. I wouldn't consider those as corners being cut, and as a horseman in Indiana, I appreciate the effort in light of the circumstances. The cooperation exhibited by all parties turned a potentially serious situation into a plan that is working.
Obviously, everyone will form their own opinions based upon their own experiences, and if you choose not to run your horses in Indiana that is your prerogative. I think there still will be full fields at Indiana Downs for the balance of this meet and beyond.
The situation at Indiana Downs could have very easily ended the meet save for the cooperation between the track and horsemen. So, while the ship-in accomodations for the late arrivals are not ideal, there was significant effort to put together a game plan that provided an opportunity for people to run in the first place.
Owners of all quarantined horses are being compensated. Local trainers with stalls at the track, who had other local housing options, gave up their stalls to provide for horses to ship in. And, one local owner/trainer donated the portable stalls that you referenced. I wouldn't consider those as corners being cut, and as a horseman in Indiana, I appreciate the effort in light of the circumstances. The cooperation exhibited by all parties turned a potentially serious situation into a plan that is working.
Obviously, everyone will form their own opinions based upon their own experiences, and if you choose not to run your horses in Indiana that is your prerogative. I think there still will be full fields at Indiana Downs for the balance of this meet and beyond.
First of all, I am not downplaying the fact that there were many gracious horseman whom I’m sure were inconvenienced by the quarantine. We have many friends based in Indiana that are great people. Yes, Indiana Downs worked quickly to find a way around the problem to keep the track open. However, my point remains that the friends that we encouraged to race in Indiana were treated poorly. I’m sure that many ship-ins have been accommodated in barns. The fact remains that the TB that we shipped up (who is always extremely competitive and won last time out at Indiana Downs) ran very, very badly. He was exhausted by the time the race came due to the fact that he cooked all day in the sun. The fact remains that there was no lighting in which to get the horse ready. The fact remains that subsequently the trainer pulled his horse from an upcoming handicap race at Indiana Downs.
“The horse that I shipped in to race and the others that I personally know of got into stalls on site and haven't had a problem. I haven't heard any other complaints...”
Why would you hear complaints if you got into a barn? I’m sure the ones that were lucky enough to get a stall were very happy – especially if they were looking out on the horses in the parking lot! Also, if a trainer ships-in from out of state, he probably doesn’t know a whole lot of locals. He’s not going to complain to anyone there, but he will go home and tell his friends about it.
“As you know, there is only about 1 1/2 weeks left of the meet, so I don't know how much extra expense they will want to throw out there…”
Yes, I do know that there is only a short time left in the meet. Why should the horses be punished for this? The have the money to compensate owners/trainers of quarantined horses. Temporary shade is really not that expensive.
“….our purse money has been cut effectively in half and slots didn't go through again”
This is a whole different discussion. However, the entire industry in Indiana was aware of the risks of approving a second track. Horseman jumped at the idea of doubling racing days – even if it meant cutting purses drastically. I understand that Indiana was banking on expanded gambling, but from the conversations I had with our local senator at the time I was in Indiana, it was very clear that was never, ever going to pass – and that was from a more “progressive” senator from an Indianapolis district. It is very unfortunate that they won’t pass it, though, as the money they allotted for schools are much needed.
“Sure, there are horses from Kentucky, Illinois, Ohio, etc. who ship in, but as with anything I would imagine each trainer has to weigh their options. I'm a bit surprised at some of the horses that still ship in at all. I mean, 5 years ago there was a reason... the purses were decent. But now the purses are much smaller and people should be able to race much closer to home for more money!”
If you look at the tracks that are open, Indiana actually seems like a great place to race. Churchill is extremely competitive – even with a great horse. If you are racing for 4th place at Churchill you can be racing for a win at Indiana Downs. Sure the purse is way less – but 5% of 47K is still less than 60% of 11K (MSW comparisons). Some people want the win and the cash, so for these people Indiana seems like a logical place. Mountaineer – tough place to get into a race. With no overnight races written you only have what’s in the book that day. If you don’t get in it’ll be a few weeks before that race comes up again. Indiana has short fields for non state-races (generally), especially on the dirt. There have been many days that entries didn’t close until the following day because they couldn’t fill fields. River Downs – purses are terrible. Arlington Park & Thistle Downs– if you are in KY, a very long haul.
It would be great to be able to say to anyone “we don’t need you”. The fact remains that a racing program such as Indiana that is on rocky ground cannot afford to alienate too many trainers and owners. If you are an owner and show up at a track to see your horse run, look around at new beautiful barns, then see your horse in a pen in a parking lot, you are going to be upset – no matter what the circumstances. The trainers are not notified in advance if they will be in temporary stalls, giving them the opportunity to scratch before spending the money to ship in. I would imagine that the betting public would be interested to know which horses are provided with adequate housing, and which are standing in the sun all day getting cooked. I know that I do not consider it a level playing field – those in stalls and those in the parking lot.
Again, please do not think that I am faulting the horsemen themselves. However, I still think that the treatment of these trainers and their horses was unfair and I stand by my decision to race elsewhere. You may not miss my horses, but if enough other trainers/owners are turned-off, it will have an impact.
“The horse that I shipped in to race and the others that I personally know of got into stalls on site and haven't had a problem. I haven't heard any other complaints...”
Why would you hear complaints if you got into a barn? I’m sure the ones that were lucky enough to get a stall were very happy – especially if they were looking out on the horses in the parking lot! Also, if a trainer ships-in from out of state, he probably doesn’t know a whole lot of locals. He’s not going to complain to anyone there, but he will go home and tell his friends about it.
“As you know, there is only about 1 1/2 weeks left of the meet, so I don't know how much extra expense they will want to throw out there…”
Yes, I do know that there is only a short time left in the meet. Why should the horses be punished for this? The have the money to compensate owners/trainers of quarantined horses. Temporary shade is really not that expensive.
“….our purse money has been cut effectively in half and slots didn't go through again”
This is a whole different discussion. However, the entire industry in Indiana was aware of the risks of approving a second track. Horseman jumped at the idea of doubling racing days – even if it meant cutting purses drastically. I understand that Indiana was banking on expanded gambling, but from the conversations I had with our local senator at the time I was in Indiana, it was very clear that was never, ever going to pass – and that was from a more “progressive” senator from an Indianapolis district. It is very unfortunate that they won’t pass it, though, as the money they allotted for schools are much needed.
“Sure, there are horses from Kentucky, Illinois, Ohio, etc. who ship in, but as with anything I would imagine each trainer has to weigh their options. I'm a bit surprised at some of the horses that still ship in at all. I mean, 5 years ago there was a reason... the purses were decent. But now the purses are much smaller and people should be able to race much closer to home for more money!”
If you look at the tracks that are open, Indiana actually seems like a great place to race. Churchill is extremely competitive – even with a great horse. If you are racing for 4th place at Churchill you can be racing for a win at Indiana Downs. Sure the purse is way less – but 5% of 47K is still less than 60% of 11K (MSW comparisons). Some people want the win and the cash, so for these people Indiana seems like a logical place. Mountaineer – tough place to get into a race. With no overnight races written you only have what’s in the book that day. If you don’t get in it’ll be a few weeks before that race comes up again. Indiana has short fields for non state-races (generally), especially on the dirt. There have been many days that entries didn’t close until the following day because they couldn’t fill fields. River Downs – purses are terrible. Arlington Park & Thistle Downs– if you are in KY, a very long haul.
It would be great to be able to say to anyone “we don’t need you”. The fact remains that a racing program such as Indiana that is on rocky ground cannot afford to alienate too many trainers and owners. If you are an owner and show up at a track to see your horse run, look around at new beautiful barns, then see your horse in a pen in a parking lot, you are going to be upset – no matter what the circumstances. The trainers are not notified in advance if they will be in temporary stalls, giving them the opportunity to scratch before spending the money to ship in. I would imagine that the betting public would be interested to know which horses are provided with adequate housing, and which are standing in the sun all day getting cooked. I know that I do not consider it a level playing field – those in stalls and those in the parking lot.
Again, please do not think that I am faulting the horsemen themselves. However, I still think that the treatment of these trainers and their horses was unfair and I stand by my decision to race elsewhere. You may not miss my horses, but if enough other trainers/owners are turned-off, it will have an impact.
CS,
One of your opening statements in your initial rant was "I cannot believe that the HORSEMEN in Indiana and the racing staff consider this acceptable treatment for the ship-in horses and trainers," with my emphasis added on horsemen. This statement is in conflict with one of your final statements in your most recent post, which says, "Again, please do not think that I am faulting the Horsemen themselves." Once again, my emphasis on horsemen. From your first statement, why wouldn't I think that you are impugning Indiana horsemen; hence, my response as an Indiana horseman.
By process of elimination, it seems as if your concern lies with Indiana Downs. My suggestion would be to follow this link to the feedback portion of their website, http://www.indianadowns.com/FormLayout.asp?formcall=1. I've used this link for both positive and constructive criticism, and I've always received a thoughtful, fact-based response. You'll have to give your name; however, to submit the form.
Just as I mentioned in a prior post that people make choices based upon their experiences, Indiana Downs had to make some serious choices so people's livelihoods, both on-track and off- track, weren't impacted as seriously as they could have been. They had to look to the bigger picture for a fledgling racing state by keeping their meet alive, and they should be congratulated for their approach.
One of your opening statements in your initial rant was "I cannot believe that the HORSEMEN in Indiana and the racing staff consider this acceptable treatment for the ship-in horses and trainers," with my emphasis added on horsemen. This statement is in conflict with one of your final statements in your most recent post, which says, "Again, please do not think that I am faulting the Horsemen themselves." Once again, my emphasis on horsemen. From your first statement, why wouldn't I think that you are impugning Indiana horsemen; hence, my response as an Indiana horseman.
By process of elimination, it seems as if your concern lies with Indiana Downs. My suggestion would be to follow this link to the feedback portion of their website, http://www.indianadowns.com/FormLayout.asp?formcall=1. I've used this link for both positive and constructive criticism, and I've always received a thoughtful, fact-based response. You'll have to give your name; however, to submit the form.
Just as I mentioned in a prior post that people make choices based upon their experiences, Indiana Downs had to make some serious choices so people's livelihoods, both on-track and off- track, weren't impacted as seriously as they could have been. They had to look to the bigger picture for a fledgling racing state by keeping their meet alive, and they should be congratulated for their approach.
redhart1 wrote:CS,
One of your opening statements in your initial rant was "I cannot believe that the HORSEMEN in Indiana and the racing staff consider this acceptable treatment for the ship-in horses and trainers," with my emphasis added on horsemen. This statement is in conflict with one of your final statements in your most recent post, which says, "Again, please do not think that I am faulting the Horsemen themselves." Once again, my emphasis on horsemen. From your first statement, why wouldn't I think that you are impugning Indiana horsemen; hence, my response as an Indiana horseman.
I think what often happens in internet communication is people put emphasis on the wrong words. Just my opinion. I would put the emphasis on "consider this", which, to me, doesn't impart actual or direct blame. The statement seems to be a questioning of judgement or lack of understanding what is acceptable and what is not. The statement also began with "I cannot believe", which also indicates a questioning that the HORSEMEN actually and directly had anything to do with how things were done.
I apologize for the delay in the meeting report, but here's the gist of it:
The meeting Tuesday night was attended by representatives of the following groups: ITOBA, the Horsemen's Coalition, Breed Development, the HBPA, Indiana Downs, Indiana owners, Indiana breeders, Indiana trainers, Outriders, Veterinarians, etc. The unanimous reaction to this complaint by those in attendance was one of shock, disbelief, and in some cases borderline outrage at the complete lack of true understanding of the situation and all of it's particular intricate details that one would simply have to have in order to voice these complaints.
Several people wanted to respond personally, but most were not internet-types. A few folks stated that they would respond, and I see that one has done so. I have also received a response that I would like to post here, but I am awaiting approval from the original author to do so.
I, myself, have been wanting to respond to this again, but to address each of these complaints that I take issue with would take quite some time, and unfortunately, my online time over the past week has been extremely limited.
Suffice it to say that the horsemen have been VERY MUCH involved with every step of this quarantine, as have the breed groups, HBPA, the State Vet and other vets, and several others way too numerous to mention. We are all very, very proud of the way that the Indiana Horsemen, Indiana Downs, trainers, owners, outriders, staff, vets, and everyone else involved have come together and handled what could've been a crisis situation, allowing the meet to continue with the exception of one single race day. It has been stated that this quarantine has worked far more efficiently than other recent quarantines at much larger, more experienced tracks. We are also quite proud of that.
I will address this all myself if I do not receive permission to post the reply that I received, but in the meantime I will wait, as it comes from a much higher authority than myself, and happens to mirror my own sentiments on this exactly.
The meeting Tuesday night was attended by representatives of the following groups: ITOBA, the Horsemen's Coalition, Breed Development, the HBPA, Indiana Downs, Indiana owners, Indiana breeders, Indiana trainers, Outriders, Veterinarians, etc. The unanimous reaction to this complaint by those in attendance was one of shock, disbelief, and in some cases borderline outrage at the complete lack of true understanding of the situation and all of it's particular intricate details that one would simply have to have in order to voice these complaints.
Several people wanted to respond personally, but most were not internet-types. A few folks stated that they would respond, and I see that one has done so. I have also received a response that I would like to post here, but I am awaiting approval from the original author to do so.
I, myself, have been wanting to respond to this again, but to address each of these complaints that I take issue with would take quite some time, and unfortunately, my online time over the past week has been extremely limited.
Suffice it to say that the horsemen have been VERY MUCH involved with every step of this quarantine, as have the breed groups, HBPA, the State Vet and other vets, and several others way too numerous to mention. We are all very, very proud of the way that the Indiana Horsemen, Indiana Downs, trainers, owners, outriders, staff, vets, and everyone else involved have come together and handled what could've been a crisis situation, allowing the meet to continue with the exception of one single race day. It has been stated that this quarantine has worked far more efficiently than other recent quarantines at much larger, more experienced tracks. We are also quite proud of that.
I will address this all myself if I do not receive permission to post the reply that I received, but in the meantime I will wait, as it comes from a much higher authority than myself, and happens to mirror my own sentiments on this exactly.
**************************************
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
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horsedoc89
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Just to emphasize what Redhart1 & Roguelet have already stated in response to the complaint made by CS, the Indiana Horsemen & Indiana Downs are to be commended for the quick response, the cooperation & sacrifices made to make the best of a terrible situation & save what was left of the Indiana Downs '05 TB meet. Everyone that I have spoken with about this subject feels that if it hadn't been for the efforts & cooperation of everyone involved that the meet would have been cancelled & that these people should be commended for their efforts. It appears to me that the options were: close the meet, allow horses to be stabled in the receiving barn & risk spreading Strangles, or quickly set up temporary stalls outside & cooperate with each other as much as possible to continue racing. Under the circumstances those involved did the best that they could.