I went through and read a bunch of your recent discussions. One post said basically that most people that are breeding and/ or buying don't know the difference between line breeding and out cross breeding.
Well, I am sure I know what out cross breeding, but is line breeding going back along the sire line, until I reach say Native Dancer. Then I would have line bred to Native Dancer? If that is the case, personally I don't think that the sire's, sire's grand-sire has much influence on any future foal breeding decisions that I make.
My first foal has 13 lines tracing back to Man O' War. I would have thought that that would be more influential than who the sire was 5 or 6 sires back. Just my (no experienced) opinion.
Line and out cross breeding
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louis finochio
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When I was a youth I always hung around the vetrans of the sport of TB racing and thats where I receive my foundation of knowledge.
I have been blessed as I have met the key breeders and trainers in the industry that have added to my know how of the sport of TB.
Keep reading and do your research as you will become the queen for a day as you will harvest what you reap.
I have been blessed as I have met the key breeders and trainers in the industry that have added to my know how of the sport of TB.
Keep reading and do your research as you will become the queen for a day as you will harvest what you reap.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
Welcome, jfw. I think I understand your drift and agree with you. I thought I'd try to explain some of the terms we use often on the board for those who are early on the learning curve, and hope I don't confuse or misrepresent the facts.
I believe I'm correct in stating that line-breeding is sharing a common ancestor (male or female) in both the dam's and sire's pedigree at the sixth generation and beyond. Inbreeding is having the same ancestor within the first five generations. Outcrossing is having no common ancestors between the dam and sire within five generations. A horse can be both line-bred and outcrossed, but not both inbred and outcrossed; rather, an outcrossed horse may have an inbred parent, and still have duplications within five generations.
With only one line of direct inheritance, limited numbers of genes of the ancestor are shared by the descendant, as only half the genetic material of the ancestor is shared with its son or daughter. However, with multiple line-breedings, the ancestor passes genetic material through various offspring to the final descendant, so the greater the genetic influence of the ancestor, even though the percentage of his blood may be the same in each case.
i.e. We say there are two crosses to Buckpasser, rather than two crosses to his sire Tom Fool, if the Tom Fool is only found through his son Buckpasser and not through other heirs. That is because only a random half of the genetic material of Tom Fool is available to the heirs: that which goes through Buckpasser. However, if a third cross is available through a different son or daughter (say Jester), then Tom Fool is also considered a separate cross, as more of his genetic material is available to the final descendant through the additional random 50% genetics of Tom Fool transmitted through Jester.
If we are looking at good characteristics, such as speed, aggressiveness, or stamina, multiple line-breedings is ideal for harvesting additional genetic strength. If we are looking at problems, such as cowardliness or unsoundness, we'd prefer the breedings be mostly through only his heirs that have had less problems in those areas, if those heirs also exhibit the good qualities we want to incorporate. More direct inheritance might be in order in that case in some pedigrees.
I believe I'm correct in stating that line-breeding is sharing a common ancestor (male or female) in both the dam's and sire's pedigree at the sixth generation and beyond. Inbreeding is having the same ancestor within the first five generations. Outcrossing is having no common ancestors between the dam and sire within five generations. A horse can be both line-bred and outcrossed, but not both inbred and outcrossed; rather, an outcrossed horse may have an inbred parent, and still have duplications within five generations.
With only one line of direct inheritance, limited numbers of genes of the ancestor are shared by the descendant, as only half the genetic material of the ancestor is shared with its son or daughter. However, with multiple line-breedings, the ancestor passes genetic material through various offspring to the final descendant, so the greater the genetic influence of the ancestor, even though the percentage of his blood may be the same in each case.
i.e. We say there are two crosses to Buckpasser, rather than two crosses to his sire Tom Fool, if the Tom Fool is only found through his son Buckpasser and not through other heirs. That is because only a random half of the genetic material of Tom Fool is available to the heirs: that which goes through Buckpasser. However, if a third cross is available through a different son or daughter (say Jester), then Tom Fool is also considered a separate cross, as more of his genetic material is available to the final descendant through the additional random 50% genetics of Tom Fool transmitted through Jester.
If we are looking at good characteristics, such as speed, aggressiveness, or stamina, multiple line-breedings is ideal for harvesting additional genetic strength. If we are looking at problems, such as cowardliness or unsoundness, we'd prefer the breedings be mostly through only his heirs that have had less problems in those areas, if those heirs also exhibit the good qualities we want to incorporate. More direct inheritance might be in order in that case in some pedigrees.
Rocking H
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Inbreeding depression is another term of interest. Animals that are inbreed are often smaller and less hardy than outcrossed animals.
What is likely to be going on here is that each chromosome contains both genes and modifiers of those genes. The modifiers act like little switches. When one modifier is present it acts like a + boosting whatever gene it is modifiying. Two identical modifiers one on each chromosome act like a minus, and damp down the gene.
So when through inbreeding the animal gets two identical chromosomes matching up, the modifiers line up, and act in the negative state - and supress the effect of the gene.
For example if you breed a son and a daughter of Bold Ruler together--both the dam and the sire would each have 50% of Bold Ruler's chromosomes, randomly selected.
The inbred foal would have a chance to get roughly 25% of Bold Rulers chromosomes from each parent. Some of these are likely to be identical chromosomes.
So lets say 6 chromosome pairs have the identical chromosome from Bold Ruler, all these modifiers are now set in the minus state. Also any recessives that these 6 chromosomes carry are going to be expressed.
This could be good, or bad depending on how the genetic dice roll.
Animals with a high degree of inbreeding can be very effective in a breeding program. Think of it as a genetic handicap.
A pretty typical pattern is to inbreed for a couple of generations, concentrating the chromosomes, and the modifiers in the minus state, then follow with a complete outcross. No identical chromosomes, all the modifiers switch over to the + state, and the resulting horse is bigger, stronger, and with luck faster.
The outcrossed animal wil thenl pass a random collection of chromosomes to the next generation, with random results.
Hope this helps, and good luck with your breeding program.
What is likely to be going on here is that each chromosome contains both genes and modifiers of those genes. The modifiers act like little switches. When one modifier is present it acts like a + boosting whatever gene it is modifiying. Two identical modifiers one on each chromosome act like a minus, and damp down the gene.
So when through inbreeding the animal gets two identical chromosomes matching up, the modifiers line up, and act in the negative state - and supress the effect of the gene.
For example if you breed a son and a daughter of Bold Ruler together--both the dam and the sire would each have 50% of Bold Ruler's chromosomes, randomly selected.
The inbred foal would have a chance to get roughly 25% of Bold Rulers chromosomes from each parent. Some of these are likely to be identical chromosomes.
So lets say 6 chromosome pairs have the identical chromosome from Bold Ruler, all these modifiers are now set in the minus state. Also any recessives that these 6 chromosomes carry are going to be expressed.
This could be good, or bad depending on how the genetic dice roll.
Animals with a high degree of inbreeding can be very effective in a breeding program. Think of it as a genetic handicap.
A pretty typical pattern is to inbreed for a couple of generations, concentrating the chromosomes, and the modifiers in the minus state, then follow with a complete outcross. No identical chromosomes, all the modifiers switch over to the + state, and the resulting horse is bigger, stronger, and with luck faster.
The outcrossed animal wil thenl pass a random collection of chromosomes to the next generation, with random results.
Hope this helps, and good luck with your breeding program.
Hybred Corn is very uniform and it is the result of crosing two very inbred but unrelated strains. IN fact I believe this is done a second time with two unrelated outcrosed strains and the result is still very uniform and highly productive. However, if you plant self pollinated seed from either the first or seconfd outcross the resulting plants vary all over the place with one common trait in that they are not very productive.
I've often wondered if this would work with TBs. There is a stallion in WV [Valid Indy] that is a son of A.P. Indy out of a What A Pleasure daughter [Guilded Lilly]. He did not do much as a race horse and has not produced anything of significance as a stud; however, I've often wondered what he would produce if bred to a in-bred Mr P/ND mare.
My thoughts are to try this with Hot Peppers or Emancipated Woman when they are old enough to breed.
What soy you ?
griff
I've often wondered if this would work with TBs. There is a stallion in WV [Valid Indy] that is a son of A.P. Indy out of a What A Pleasure daughter [Guilded Lilly]. He did not do much as a race horse and has not produced anything of significance as a stud; however, I've often wondered what he would produce if bred to a in-bred Mr P/ND mare.
My thoughts are to try this with Hot Peppers or Emancipated Woman when they are old enough to breed.
What soy you ?
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
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louis finochio
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Look at the pedigrees of Dynaformer---Devils His Due and Successful Appeal.
You will find two line-bred families on the sire and dam side that are not related as this is an example of a hybrid vigor mating.
Breeders should follow these types of matings to produced sounder TB, as their is a balance of sire lines to balance out these matings.
You will find two line-bred families on the sire and dam side that are not related as this is an example of a hybrid vigor mating.
Breeders should follow these types of matings to produced sounder TB, as their is a balance of sire lines to balance out these matings.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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Griff,
First a couple of questions. What does Valid Indy look like? Does he have the look of anyone up in the family tree?
Did Valid Indy race, if so how sound was he? What problems did he have?
Bold Ruler shows up, as does Princequillo and Somethingroyal, but I'm not sure that any of the inbreeding is close enough to have duplicate chromosomes show up, and to have Valid Indy express inbreeding depression.
Look at Halo Silver, up in Emancipated Woman pedigree. Between Hail to Reason, and Mahmoud, there is a chance that there is some inbreeding depression going on here. However her produce record is not great.
Linebreeding is a game of numbers, and it doesn't always give you the desired results. It is a matter of chance of which chromosomes line up, and how many times the cross is repeated till the right combination comes up.
The University of Oklahoma published a book on the King Ranch Quarter Horses that might be of interest. What jumps out is huge number of horses that they started working with, and just how strongly they culled the broodmare bands and the young colts that were prospective studs.
Good luck hope this helps.
First a couple of questions. What does Valid Indy look like? Does he have the look of anyone up in the family tree?
Did Valid Indy race, if so how sound was he? What problems did he have?
Bold Ruler shows up, as does Princequillo and Somethingroyal, but I'm not sure that any of the inbreeding is close enough to have duplicate chromosomes show up, and to have Valid Indy express inbreeding depression.
Look at Halo Silver, up in Emancipated Woman pedigree. Between Hail to Reason, and Mahmoud, there is a chance that there is some inbreeding depression going on here. However her produce record is not great.
Linebreeding is a game of numbers, and it doesn't always give you the desired results. It is a matter of chance of which chromosomes line up, and how many times the cross is repeated till the right combination comes up.
The University of Oklahoma published a book on the King Ranch Quarter Horses that might be of interest. What jumps out is huge number of horses that they started working with, and just how strongly they culled the broodmare bands and the young colts that were prospective studs.
Good luck hope this helps.
xfantor fan
I saw Vakid Indy last year. he's a big leggy nice looking stallion. However, he does not have the substance I would expect in an A.P. Indy/What A Pleasure colt.
I don't know why he did not preform as a race horse or as a stud. he has a knot on one hind ankle which may have had something to do with hsi race record or lack there of.
I thought the Secretariat. Seattkle Slew and What A Pleasure up close would justify him as an in-bred Bold Ruler stallion. I like his pedigree but, because of his and his get's lack of preformance would only breed to him to get an outcross from two unrealted in-bred individuals.
I thoughy Emancipated Woman's 3 X 4 to Mr P and her longer cross to Rebot might qualify her as an "in-bred" filly. Guess I was mistaken as to what constitutes "in-bred". Take a look at Hot Peppers and see if you think she qualifies as in-bred to ND & Mr. P.
I'm a little soft on culling well bred fillys; however, I've cut every colt I've ever put on the ground and have yet to make a mistake.
griff
griff
I saw Vakid Indy last year. he's a big leggy nice looking stallion. However, he does not have the substance I would expect in an A.P. Indy/What A Pleasure colt.
I don't know why he did not preform as a race horse or as a stud. he has a knot on one hind ankle which may have had something to do with hsi race record or lack there of.
I thought the Secretariat. Seattkle Slew and What A Pleasure up close would justify him as an in-bred Bold Ruler stallion. I like his pedigree but, because of his and his get's lack of preformance would only breed to him to get an outcross from two unrealted in-bred individuals.
I thoughy Emancipated Woman's 3 X 4 to Mr P and her longer cross to Rebot might qualify her as an "in-bred" filly. Guess I was mistaken as to what constitutes "in-bred". Take a look at Hot Peppers and see if you think she qualifies as in-bred to ND & Mr. P.
I'm a little soft on culling well bred fillys; however, I've cut every colt I've ever put on the ground and have yet to make a mistake.
griff
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]