help- Rank Stallion

[Karie]

Need some help here... One of my stallions has became a JERK.

He covered 1 mare last year adn has about 6 booked to him so far this year. We have covered 2 so far and its been tough. He totally is rank.
He comes out of the stall on his hind legs and charges the mare.

He was a little tough last year but nothing like this. I am not handling him myself now because he is WAY too strong. We are breeding him with a chain in his mouth. He rears and fights with the handler who is carrying and using a crop on him when he is not listening.

At this point we tease the mare with another stallion and then clean this one up and walk him to another barn where the mare is waiting.
As we set the mare up out side the stall where the "jerk" is waiting all he does is kick the stall... He walks out of the stall and is instantly on his hind legs and walks to the mare like this... Scares the crap out of the mare doing this.. Its VERY dangerous to everyone involved......

help... how can we stop him from doing this?
The horse is 15.3 on his tiptoes.. the handler is a big strong guy like 6'4 or so... and the chain is in his mouth and the handler carries a crop for safety.. and uses it when neccessary..

I have tried the chain on his lip and it wasn't any different..

anyone have any ideas?

Thanks!

[Gerry]

Karie,

One of my wonderful boys is also a jerk...and he bit me hard and painfully last week. We are using a chiffney bit for control. Maybe that would help a little.

Good luck

Gerry

[TrueColours]

Karie - I am no stallion handler extraordinaire by any means, but you sure learn what makes each one of them tick in a big hurry!

One of them, who shall remain nameless, was a real enigma to figure out. He had only covered one mare in his life when I got him, and the first mare we tried to cover with him, he was very shy and very reserved with, and it took maybe 15 or 20 minutes before he would even approach her even though she was in full blown heat and squatting and peeing up a storm if he even looked her way, so she was beyond being a good girl about it ... After we convinced him that all wa sokay, he did cover her.

Two days later she was still in, so brought her out again, brought the stallion out again and she was again very receptive, but this time, from about 20 feet out, he charged her with his ears pinned flat back and dove at her with his feet and teeth and wheeled around and tried to double barrel her with both hind feet to boot. He totally surprised me and almost sent me flying into the air. I nailed him hard and made him back up and we did get the job done as well ...

3 days later, different mare, just as receptive, and I had NO idea if I was going to be dealing with a shy and hesitant breeder or a charging one but at least this time I was ready for him. He did the same thing - pinned his ears and charged from about 20 feet out and I nailed him as hard as I have ever nailed a horse in my life. He ran backwards about 30 or 40 feet with my whaling on him and telling him "BACK!!!", I flipped him over on the grass and I nailed him while he was on the ground as well and from that point on, all I had to do was raise my voice and say "whoa" or back" and he knew EXACTLY what that meant and what would happen next if he didnt do so. He was always very light in the back end though and would spin to the right and try to kick out at the mare so it was tough to try and control his right shoulder and side when I was on his left side, but knowing what he would do at least would prepare you

I found with him that he was very insecure about a lot of things and he almost wanted to have the upper hand and hurt the mare before she had a chance to hurt him or some bizarre rationale that only he understood ???

He never did charge again after those first few times. I think he understood his parameters and thankfully never tested them again

Its tough Karie - I really sympathize with you ...

GG is strong and enthusiastic but always controllable and has never charged a mare with us and I find with him - he is so frigging sensitive, its a fine line between laying down the rules and hurting his feelings

As far as equipment - a few suggestions to think about and maybe try:

The A.D.D. halter: http://www.tackinthebox.com/stablewares ... 81_200.htm

The Dually halter:
http://www.montyroberts.com/shop_tack_training.html

Control halter:
http://www.horse.com/products/gift-0__sku-BMH08.html

and this one looks kind of neat as well:
http://www.horse.com/products/gift-0__sku-BMH09.html

Good luck Karie - I hope between the lot of us we can help you out!

Donna

[ragsdaj]

it all starts with ground control. hopefully he is manageable and respectful when there are no mares around. If not then you have to go back a step before you go forward.

If you can manage him you might find someone who has some experience training with a shock collar........lot of controversy about using a shock collar on horses, but tritronics has been making them for years.

[Karie]

Donna- thanks for the links .. I'll check them out ..

and i will order the chiffney bit- its worth a try too.

And the stud does have good ground manners when its not breeding season or Perfect Circle isn't around - wow does he hate him!

This horse has excellent balance - never comes close to flipping over.
If the ground was right I would almost think of trying that- but not where we are at.. rock hard dirt floor.

OH... I have a shock collar for the dog that i never used.. would this be strong enough. We are ready to try anything.

keep the ideas coming.. !
THANKS!

[Spain]

We had a horse at OSU like this. In the beginning of breeding season he would rear up and walk to the dummy on his hind legs, and then throw himself on the dummy. Usually a student and professor would walk him down, one on each side, because when he'd rear he'd try to come down on you. We just did a lot of backing with him. Exercise helped settle him down, but then he couldn't perform. I can see why you're worried though. A 15.3 horse on his hind legs jumping for a mare is a scary sight.

[madelyn]

Certainly a chiffney, by all means. You could also try putting a long leadrope through the halter ring, down between his front legs and then encircle the girth and tie it. When he goes up you PULL DOWN and he won't be able to stay in the air. Take a dressage whip, also, and whap across his knees to make him drop them. That really smarts.

I hope it's not Double Deposit.. I root for that guy.

Rocking Trick is such a good boy.. on a leadrope, no chain, etc., walks up, mounts the mare on command, when he's done, back to the stall no muss no fuss.

Good luck with your boy.

[kimberley mine]

and i will order the chiffney bit- its worth a try too.

OH... I have a shock collar for the dog that i never used.. would this be strong enough. We are ready to try anything.

keep the ideas coming.. !
THANKS!

Karie, the girth/halter thing Madelyn describes is VERY commonly used in the draft horse world, and it is called a stallion check belt. Their stallions even show in-hand while wearing them. You live in a part of the country where drafts are still relatively common, so you might look up a draft horse breeder and ask if they have one, and if so where they got it.

I tried googling one for you and the search terms "draft horse stallion check belt" kept coming up with adult websites.

Here is another draft-oriented website with some good suggestions:
http://www.drafthorsejournal.com/vetcol ... nter03.htm

[Roguelet]

I tried googling one for you and the search terms "draft horse stallion check belt" kept coming up with adult websites.

Does the stallion spend a lot of time in the stall? Might he be better if he was turned out with other horses? Maybe you already do that, I don't know... just a thought. Stallions sometimes lead such lonely lives for a herd animal... I know turning our guy out with his own harem keeps him totally content and he's very easy to handle while breeding or doing anything else for that matter. Previous owners who had him in a stall 24/7 did not find him quite so easy to deal with.

[ragsdaj]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horseh ... ecno=58660

here is an article that was in TB Times. Not as detailed as it probably should be

[Karie]

yep... its Double Deposit...

but luckily for me it NOT Perfect Circle... a 17.2 hh horse doing this would be much worse. He is actually ok to handle other than washing him he hates that one..

I have never heard of the draft horse stallion belt thing I will check into it.

Yes he spends too much time in the stall. The problem is that I have no horses I can turn him out with.... none.... and I cant leave him out all day its not my farm and they would not allow that.......

Hopefully his mare is out of heat today and we don't have to deal with him today!

[kimberley mine]

yep... its Double Deposit...
I have never heard of the draft horse stallion belt thing I will check into it.

It looks like this:

(Photo credits to Shakespeare Shires, the owner of this beautiful boy!)

This stallion is wearing the in-hand show version, with side reins. In the breeding version, you would have a ring attached to the surcingle between his forelegs, and a long line from his halter to the ring on the surcingle. If he tries to go up, you pull on the line, and he goes right back down (and stands there thinking about why he's down).

[Bondama]

I agree with Roguelet. My stud, too, is turned out 24/7 with "his girls" and he is as quiet and content as anyone can be.

[Intrinsic Worth]

If he's that aggressive, he could easily hurt a mare if he was turned out with them.

[Roguelet]

If he's that aggressive, he could easily hurt a mare if he was turned out with them.

Of course that's definitely possible, but in our stallion's case he was "attitudinal" BECAUSE he was locked in a stall and didn't have the interaction with other horses, not because he was aggressive or difficult by nature. We were extremely careful (and rather nervous) when introducing him to other horses. He's not stupid, though, and even though he will beeline to every mare to see if she's in heat, once she tells him "NO," he backs off and settles into the herd mentality that nature intended.