"I feel the need, the need for speed."

[TJ]

[b]" . . . ~
Once again, it is preposterous to believe that the Thoroughbred has run at the same speed for the past 50 years. How about a little common sense? The goal when leaving the gate is to cross the finish line first, in most cases, not all cases, the fastest horse wins. Them guys and gals breed to produce the fastest horse. It's all potatoes and gravy - heavy on the facts.

Hi Whirl,
It isn't that preposterous when you consider pace makes the race and the horse's speed is being controlled by the jockey on their back. A horse, over a distance of ground, can only run so fast before a fast pace will take its toll. That was what was so amazing about Secretariat....fast pace, track records and all out running and he never stopped......that is why his Belmont Stakes record will never be threatened. Consider the advent of the synthetic tracks in California if you want to see what the rider has to do with the speed of a race. When it first came around the jockey's rode it like they did the dirt. It was a speedway when it was a dirt track, many horses winning wire to wire. It didn't take the riders long to realize a horse couldn't win on the lead over synthetic so they changed their race riding tactics and slowed down the early pace and made a strong run through the lane.....Zenyatta a perfect example. So the riders on the backs of these horses have a lot to do with breaking speed records....they know if they want to win a classic race they have to save something for the finish. Sprinting we will see some fast times.....but over a distance of ground it's not going to happen. We see so many good horses winning while being eased at the wire so don't look for times to get much faster....if at all. TJ

[Shammy Davis]

Here is some more interesting facts about the racehorse.

Horses
•can breathe only through their noses
•can only breathe in synch with their stride
•have outsized spleens that release oxygen-rich red blood cells into the blood stream when they run
•have hearts that can handle blood that thickens with the 50% increase in red blood cells
•are the only animals, other than humans, that sweat through their skin

A horse’s body is like a huge bellows, McKeever explained. Its breathing is dictated by the movement of its body and is in synchrony with its stride. Horses can inhale only when their front hooves are striding outward, they exhale only when all four legs come together -- the in and out of the bellows.

Unlike human runners who can take a deep breath independent of their leg movements, horses cannot take that extra-deep gulp of air when in full gallop, said Lawrence R. Soma, professor of anesthesia and clinical pharmacology at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine. That means a horse with a longer stride has more time to inhale and exhale, allowing the horse time to breathe more deeply. Horses cannot increase their breathing rate without running faster or shortening their strides.

The horse with the longer stride has an advantage, because it has more breathing time, Birks said. Triple Crown winner Secretariat had one of longest stride ever recorded, allowing him to take bigger breaths, he said. So, the longer the stride, the more likely to win, right?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 232456.htm

I've often heard that it is oxygen debt that sets limits on the speed that horse can attain.

[DDT]

Whirlaway

I told you where to go to get copies of the articles, americanturfmonthly.com how difficult is that? As to my data, when you send me a check for 15,000.00 to cover my costs in assembling the data that is when you, and only you, will get a look at it.


DDT

[Shammy Davis]

I found the study, I referenced! This research also suggests limitations because of lactic acid build-up and O2 debt. It appears that external factors play a more significant role with improved human performace than with the racehorse.

. . .It is pertinent however, that whereas human athletes attempt to achieve the best possible times in almost every race, except perhaps the marathon; the jockeys, trainers and owners of racehorses are more concerned about winning per se, regardless of time; thus race tactics can influence the winning time in horse races more so than human athletic contests. Also given other external variables that can affect winning times in horse races such as position in the stalls, track conditions, jockey skill; more so than in human athletic contests, then it seems likely that human winning times will improve more regularly than horse winning times. In this study, the change in winning times in elite races in both species are presented and rates of improvement compared prior to and after the 1950’s.

. . . In the modern era (1950 to present day) when great advances in technology and knowledge have helped athletic performance, man has improved winning times by, on average, 12-13% as compared to 4% in the racehorse. We have no real measure of the relative input of modern science and technology into the training of man or horse and while it is tempting to suggest that man has benefited more from this input we cannot know for sure. However, it remains to be seen if adoption of modern training methods to racehorse training, applying the principles of exercise physiology, nutrition and interval training can produce similar gains as observed in man over the last 50 years.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2655236/

[Bast]

I'm wondering if the tendency towards greater size explains some of the apparent speed stagnation in the American TB. Standardbred times continue to improve; have those horses stayed the same size while becoming more mechanically efficient?

Perhaps an average-sized horse with superior mechanics, trained and conditioned, really trained and really conditioned, is far more desireable than heavy-bodied, tall horses.

[xfactor fan]

I suspect advances in sulkey construction is driving some of the times. Lighter carts, less drag = increased speed.

Are the times under saddle also dropping?

[Shammy Davis]

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/ ... 12324.html

[Bast]

I suspect advances in sulkey construction is driving some of the times. Lighter carts, less drag = increased speed.

Are the times under saddle also dropping?

No doubt. I know the single-pole sulkies are no longer allowed. But the times have consistently dropped over the last 50 years. They allow AI, and most Standardbreds have good sires.

I have a vague recollection of Julie Krone riding one to a record under saddle some time after she retired from racing.

[Bast]

Looks like there was a revival of Standardbred racing under saddle beginning in the 1990s. I could not find a table of times, but did find this:

The richest standardbred in history is the aptly named Moni Maker who earned over 5.5 million (U.S.)dollars in 7 countries around the world. In 105 races lifetime she finished in the top three all but 10 times. Her final race was against the clock with Julie Krone riding as they beat the former world record for trotting a mile under saddle by over four seconds, finishing in 1:54.

http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/s/st/standardbred_horse.htm

[Jessi P]

Now that would be a bumpy ride - a mile at a trot in 1:54!

[Whirlaway]

fact: 1. something that actually exists; reality; truth

NO ONE is challenging the facts and the facts are all that matter. Fact is, horses have evolved towards greater and greater speed and the clock is the proof. For those that didn't see the numbers:

North American Dirt Records Through 1976
Distance (f) Horse Record Time
6.00 Grey Papa 1:07.20
7.00 Triple Bend 1:19.80
8.00 Dr. Fager 1:32.20
8.50 Swaps 1:39.00
9.00 Secretariat 1:45.40
10.00 Noor/Quack 1:58.20
12.00 Secretariat 2:24.00

North American Dirt Records Through 2005
Distance (f) Horse Record Time
6.00 G Malleah 1:06.60
7.00 Rich Cream/Time to Explode 1:19.40
8.00 Dr. Fager/Najran 1:32.20
8.50 Hoedown's Day 1:38.40
9.00 Simply Majestic 1:45.00
10.00 Spectacular Bid 1:57.80
12.00 Secretariat 2:24.00

What would you have the breeders do, breed for a slower horse!

For those that didn't read the article, here is the link: http://www.chef-de-race.com/articles/speed_in_the_thoroughbred.htm
~
DDT,
Looks like you're a little bit short on the facts; how come I'm not surprised? You did write the article, didn't you? You should have it, shouldn't you? If it exists, post it. If there is a ROI in your 5,000 horse study, post it. Otherwise, you have no facts substantiating your statements - what you have is just your opinion.
~
Shammy,
It might be helpful if you read the studies you've posted, as some of them contradict your position. I'll stick to the facts: the Thoroughbred has gotten faster, the clock proves it, there is no doubt about it. You don't have to like it or accept it - doesn't change the facts. What makes this evolution so interesting are the unintended consequences.
~
Think I'll go have a couple of turkey sandwiches for lunch . . . little bit of gravy; heavy on the facts.

[DDT]

Whirlaway

First, of the six records you have listed 2 are the same during the time span and the largest decrease in any of the other 4 is .60, kind of goes along with what most of us are saying, speed in the thoroughbred has reached its zenith.

Second. I have sent you a PM with more information concerning my two articles. Again, you are free to write American Turf Monthly and obtain copies of both articles. As to the ROI information, you pay you see, you don't pay, you don't see, that is a fact.

DDT

[Gallop58]

Are horses getting faster?
Yes. (2000 Guineas Race time in seconds)

[pfrsue]

DDT,
Looks like you're a little bit short on the facts; how come I'm not surprised? You did write the article, didn't you? You should have it, shouldn't you? If it exists, post it.

Forum Rules:

4. Do not post copyrighted photographs or articles unless you have legal right to do so.
Feel free to post links to articles and pictures, and feel free to post articles and pictures that are not protected under copyright laws. You may post a snippet or small quote from an article in addition to the link, if there is a specific portion of that article that you wish to address in your post.

Whirlaway, DDT apparently sent you information for obtaining the articles. However, if American Turf Monthly owns those articles and they aren't in eminent domain (online) I doubt that DDT could legally post them here without being in violation of ATM's copyright, not to mention the rules here. I suggest you follow the suggestion given and go retrieve the articles for yourself if you're so interested.

[Bast]

fact: 1. something that actually exists; reality; truth

Look at the winning times of the Epsom Derby.

Unlike the times of the American classics, which have not been improved upon (throw out the Preakness because it is almost certain Secretariat is owed a record there) the record for the Derby continues to drop.