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Mahubah
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Postby Mahubah » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:37 am

TJ wrote:Think about it and you can go back pretty far and find the same business sense applied. How about the other red horse, Man O War...he raced at two and three......his son, War Admiral raced as a 2 and 3YO. Northern Dancer as well.....then off to the breeding shed where they belonged. Those that stayed longer had something to prove for one reason or another...for example Seabiscuit. Others like Kelso, Forego and John Henry had no choice:>) TJ


Not the same picture, though. Man o' War was retired not because Sam Riddle could make a huge amount of money with him in the breeding shed -- he stood him as a private stallion throughout his career, allowing only a handful of outside mares each season -- but because Riddle feared the colt would be seriously injured under the weights he would be asked to carry at 4. He had already carried 138 in the Potomac Handicap, conceding up to 33-1/2 pounds to his rivals (still the highest weight ever successfully carried by a 3yo in a route race in the U.S.) and had suffered a tendon injury in the course of the running. While it responded to treatment, the affected leg showed inflammation again following Man o' War's victory over Sir Barton in the Kenilworth Gold Cup, so managing the injury would have become a constant issue if Man o' War had continued racing. When he made the decision to retire Man o' War, Riddle had already been told by New York's handicapper Walter Vosburgh that, should Big Red win his first start at 4, Vosburgh would assign him the highest weight he had ever loaded on a horse for his next start. That plus the tendon injury pretty much made up Riddle's mind, though he did toy with the idea of sending the horse to England for the Ascot Gold Cup.

War Admiral raced at 4, quite successfully -- he actually had a better overall record in 1938 than did Seabiscuit, winning 9 of 11 starts against 6 of 11 for Seabiscuit, but lost the year-end championship to that rival on the basis of his defeat in their match race. He was slated to keep running at 5 but was retired in June of 1939 due to an ankle injury after winning his only race of the year.

Northern Dancer was also retired when he was due to injury, having damaged a tendon in his left foreleg while in training for the American Derby. His regular jockey, Bill Hartack, hinted that he may actually have suffered an initial strain on the tendon while racing in the Belmont Stakes two months earlier. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I don't believe the Dancer was syndicated until after his retirement.

I don't doubt some horses were retired earlier than they might otherwise have been due to business considerations regarding breeding even prior to World War II, but the monetary pressure and incentives to retire early were not nearly so intense prior to the 1970s, when high-profile stallion syndications became widespread, and the bloodstock boom of the 1980s which made success in the sale ring much more critical to a stallion's profitability.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis

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TJ
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Postby TJ » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:59 am

Hi Mahubah,
I agree with what you said and I certainly erred with regard to War Admiral. I did mention risk of injury as a regard for early retirement as well as, in today's racing, the expense to insure such a champion to race after he made his mark. Of course you are correct, it was a different era and although it may not have been a financial windfall to the wealthy owners (such as Riddle) and great breeding dynasty's of that day to race to the breeding shed....it was still about having the best and beating all comer's to their breeding/racing dynasty. The risk to continue racing a great horse still was there and they took every precaution to allow their champion to get to the breeding shed. It wasn't the same as today....you are correct...they were sportsman in that era, it was about having the best breeding stock and race horses. Today with many big owner's acquiring their stock via sales and private purchases it is more about turning a profit to continue in their quest to buy a ready made champion. It was a better time back then and we did see horses running and competing longer because they were in the sport for a different reason. It was all about breeding, owning and racing the best horse as opposed to buying one out of a sale...or buying a ready made runner privately after a race or two as IEAH does often (Big Brown). TJ

zinn21
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Postby zinn21 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:42 pm

Here's a list of Derby winners starting with 1987:


2012 I'll Have Another M. Gutierrez D. O'Neill Reddam Racing 2:01.83
2011 Animal Kingdom J. Velazquez H. G. Motion Team Valor 2:02.04
2010 Super Saver C. Borel T. Pletcher WinStar Farm 2:04.45
2009 Mine That Bird C. Borel B. Woolley Double Eagle Ranch 2:02.66
2008 Big Brown K. Desormeaux R. Dutrow IEAH Stables, Pompa et al 2:01.82
2007 Street Sense C. Borel C. Nafzger James Tafel 2:02.17
2006 Barbaro See Video E. Prado M. Matz Roy & Gretchen Jackson 2:01.36
2005 Giacomo M. Smith J. Sherrifs Mr. and Mrs. Jerome Moss 2:02.75
2004 Smarty Jones See Video S. Elliott J. Servis Someday Farm 2:04.06
2003 Funny Cide J. Santos B. Tagg Sackatoga Stable 2:01.19
2002 War Emblem V. Espinoza B. Baffert Thoroughbred Corp. 2:01.13
2001 Monarchos J. Chavez J. T. Ward John C. Oxley 1:59.97
2000 Fusaichi Pegasus K. Desormeaux N. Drysdale Fusao Sekiguchi 2:01.12
1999 Charismatic C. Antley D.W. Lukas Bob & Beverly Lewis 2:03.29
1998 Real Quiet K. Desormeaux B. Baffert M. Pegram 2:02.38
1997 Silver Charm G. Stevens B. Baffert Bob & Beverly Lewis 2:02.44
1996 Grindstone J. Bailey D.W. Lukas Overbrook Farm 2:01.06
1995 Thunder Gulch G. Stevens D.W. Lukas M. Tabor 2:01.27
1994 Go for Gin C. McCarron N. Zito Condren, Cornacchia 2:03.72
1993 Sea Hero J. Bailey M. Miller Rokeby Stable 2:02.42
1992 Lil E. Tee P. Day L. Whiting W.C. Partee 2:03.04
1991 Strike the Gold C. Antley N. Zito Brophy, Condren, Cornacchia 2:03.08
1990 Unbridled C. Perret C. Nafzgar F.A. Genter Stable Inc. 2:02:00
1989 Sunday Silence P. Valenzuela C. Whittingham Hancock III/ Gaillard/ Whittingham 2:05:00
1988 Winning Colors G. Stevens D.W. Lukas E.V. Klein 2:02 1/5
1987 Alysheba C. McCarron J. Van Berg Dorothy & Pamela Scharbauer 2:03 2/5

From the above list I would say Unbridled, Sunday Silence; perhaps Thunder Gulch and FuPeg were successful at stud. Street Sense shows promise and the jury is out on the most recent winners. Not a very good percentage of Derby winners who succeeded at stud. So why are breeders so hot to trot on sending their mares to Derby Trail Stallions? Why is their so much money getting thrown at these horses?

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TJ
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Postby TJ » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:12 pm

Hi Zinn,
In my opinion, the Derby is simply the most famous and sought after race to win in America. As far as breeder's wanting to bring their mares to a Derby winner, on that subject I don't know enough. It's possible it's simply the fame garnered by the winner of a Kentucky Derby? TJ

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madelyn
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Postby madelyn » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:33 pm

I think it is like catching lightning bugs. It's fun while they are flying around in the jar but they soon die and take the light with them. Derby winners seem to get big books right after they retire.. but unless the first crop wins stakes, their marketability soon dies.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....

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ElPrado
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Postby ElPrado » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:54 pm

Barbaro never had the chance.
Mine That Bird is a gelding, no help there.
Big Brown's first crop just hit the track this year.
The others since are too young.

Georgerz
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Postby Georgerz » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:57 pm

Funny Cide and Winning Colors won't help, either.

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TJ
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Postby TJ » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:14 pm

ElPrado wrote:Barbaro never had the chance.
Mine That Bird is a gelding, no help there.
Big Brown's first crop just hit the track this year.
The others since are too young.


Hi El,
I have a funny feeling Big Brown will become a very good sire. So far they are quite precocious although far flung:>) His first ever starter, a filly (Ruby Brown) raced in Russia, believe it or not and won first out. His first USA winner was Brown Eyes Blue who also won first time out. TJ

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pfrsue
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Postby pfrsue » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:28 pm

It would have been interesting to see what War Emblem could have achieved if he had been interested in his job. If I remember right, there have been some good horses in the few crops he's sired.

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dublino
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Postby dublino » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:20 am

zinn21 wrote:Here's a list of Derby winners starting with 1987:


So why are breeders so hot to trot on sending their mares to Derby Trail Stallions? Why is their so much money getting thrown at these horses?


Most of these horses are by Raise a Native line stallions, no Storm Cat no AP Indy.

Again another question why so much money being thrown at these horses also.
Edited by Moderator

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ElPrado
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Postby ElPrado » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:18 am

Several of them were really bred better for turf. Giacomo, Monarchos, Barbaro would have been...
The breeders see that they did win the Derby and go bananas thinking that everything by the horse can run on dirt, then send turf mares to them.
Some breeders need a good swift kick in the rear by their horses.