Reason number 812 I don't like Todd Pletcher

[bdw0617]

1. you and tuc both are missing the big picture.


YOu are an owner. Tuc is a trainer. neither of you would be able to do what you love to do if it were not for fans, rather you think they are right, rather you think they are wrong, or whatever, unless owners started paying the allowence purses themselves or tacks did, the money that pays your p8urses, that you in turn pay trainers like tuc with, comes from the same fans that you are both blasting for being stupid.

Well...I would say, as an owner, at the end of the day if I don't race my horse then fans are superfluous...and why on earth would I race him/her simply for some trophy and the whole "rah team" stuff??

getting to the preimise of horse racing, horse racing is when you have a horse, and you enter him or her into a race against other horses of like ability. Yes, at the end of the day you have to make a profit, I and everyone gets that. no one is asking you or anyone to do wrong by the horse, but breeding, sales, trainer and jockey salaries would not be there without horse racing which in turn would not be there without purses.

And also...racing to be worth more and racing to be the best...well...little secret...to an owner it's the same thing.

considering english isn't my first language, this might as well been in hyrogflics

please rephrase that (seriously, not joking or trying to be funny) where I can understand it


I've always noticed that people on the "inside" have very little respect for bettors. I remember one trainer calling bettors silly for betting on horses. No one seems to comphrehend that bettors are the motor oil that makes the engine run.


and about what pletcher said about the future, you are twisting my words tuc big time. I frankly don't really care what does wit the horse in the future. Ir eally don't. But it goes back to the old saying if you cant' say anything positive dont' say anyting at all. A "we are looking at options" would have been perfectly fine and this wouldnt' be a story.

IF YOU AS A TRAINER ARE GOING TO TALK TO THE MEDIA ABOUT THE HORSE, TALK ABOUT HIS HORSE RACING CAREER, NOT HIS STUD CAREER

And that in itself is promoting the horse's stud career. When Zito won the Juve with war pass, everyone here knew War Pass was going to stud sooner o alter. hell when he won the champaigne we all knew. however zito never uttered one freaking word about the horses stud potential on the horses biggest day(s) of his career. it wa sall about how good of a horse he had, how special the horse was.. that is all the public wants.



the public, the fans want so badily to get behind a horse. any horse. for any reason. Give them that opprotunity. AS fans that is all we ask. don't show us a glimpse of a special horse and talk about how valuable of a "stud" he is going to be. that's dispicalable and a slap in the face to every bettor who goes to the tracks in the dead of winter in hopes of seeing ag reat horse like myself.

As I said, when he realized he could no longer make GRI status on the dirt he was switched to turf.

I might be wrong, but sunriver NEVER was a grade 1 dirt horse. the first I ever heard of him was the preakness.

Ya, Carl posesses more horsemanship than many, but they are also retiring a horse that could maybe have been an interesting older horse.

and again you missed the entire point of the post. We KNOW there are millions upon millions of dollars for great horses at the end of the racing rainbow. we get that. all we ask is that you give the horse and the horse fans their time to bask in the short lived racing career that is the race horse.

Carl didn't ruin Steet Sense's Travers about talking about how this will "certainly be a notch" on his stud career or any silly shit like that. and you know what... every person here stil knew about where street sense was going to stand at stud for without him having to have to spit it out. He dind't get on the cetner stage last year at the breeders cup juve and say "well, no other stud has done this, win the juve by 10 lengths". do you see how silly it sounds now? let the fans, the fans have their horse.

TJ, I have the entire article, it was not taken out of context.

[TJ]

When Pletcher coudn't get Sunriver to gain GRI status in dirt races (which is more important in the breeding shed) he switched to grass to get his GRI status. For those of you not directly involved with the business of winning races at this level, this was a feat worth noting. To have owners such as the Jones', to get that GRI win for them in that race so he can be promoted as such when he goes to stud was very important.

Hey TJ - Off hand, I don't think that the grass Grade 1 is going to matter all that much to Sunriver.

Look at Southern Image at Taylor Made. He's a multiple Grade 1 dirt winner from the Halo line and he's standing for $10,000. If Taylor Made stands Sunriver (they stand plenty of Jones' stallions), why should he get any more of a fee than Southern Image? It seems that until Halo line stallions prove themselves, they start off at peanuts - why should Sunriver be any different? At least Southern Image had plenty of dirt speed.

I admire Todd's honesty and straightforwardness

What did you think during the Rags To Riches soap opera last summer? LOL!

Hi Roke,
Still grade 1 status is a plus. Third in a classic race on the dirt, won the Peter Pan on the dirt, won a grade 1 on the turf. It's a pretty good resume. He will stand for a fair price and I think he will be a very good stallion. Versatility, staying power, grass, dirt may also equate to a top synthetic track sire. TJ

[Heidilady]

I'm sure this is gonna make some folks mad, it saddens me truth me told, but the sport doesn't depend on the fans to survive right now, not unless it's Derby day or something where the casual fan wakes up for a few minutes, picks a pretty horse or one whose name reminds them of their wife or something, and watches a race. At most we're 'second choice.' The favorite in this "race" of ours is them what puts handle out there and causes it to increase. Not that it means the tracks,etc. will treat them properly but so many tracks and races would just not be existing if there weren't bettors. It needs the bettors to survive.

The breeding industry is moving more and more toward needing itself to survive. They're burning the candle at both ends right now with stud fees and yearling prices.

As for Pletcher, he talked truth. Unfortunate and slightly tacky truth but hey it's there and he did it for a reason. Of course he's slightly off if he really thinks the G1 on turf is gonna be the same as a G1 on dirt but I bet he doesn't. He's doing like you see people do on tv all the time. Talk up their team or horse or whatever trying to hope that, like Missouri in the college football rankings, someone will believe the spin. Watch political speeches afterward, the spin starts. They're trying to spin Sunriver. Probably to pick up the stragglers who don't quite get that a G1 isn't just a G1 but a lot of folks that are thinking synthetic or turf. Maybe they're trying to either take advantage of a warmer environment for those types here or maybe they're dangling a carrot in front of the Japanese. He could lie to you, making like the dentist and say this isn't gonna hurt, and feed you a lolly pop but really why must we insist he do that? Better he kept his mouth shut if it's 'if you can't say something nice....' To the owners, touting a G1 is their "something nice.' How dare they be honest, my tender ears just can't take it.

[TJ]

BDW wrote:
TJ, I have the entire article, it was not taken out of context.[/quote]

Hi BDW,
Please share that article. I have never know Todd to be a snob, I would like to read the entire article. As I said, it was just one line and truly it wasn't that out of line. Sunriver is 4 years old and obviously has some problems as he had to get revitalized on the turf. I would think that comment was made to tell the industry to expect Sunriver to show up as a stallion before long. TJ

[Rokeby Forever]

Still grade 1 status is a plus. Third in a classic race on the dirt, won the Peter Pan on the dirt, won a grade 1 on the turf. It's a pretty good resume. He will stand for a fair price and I think he will be a very good stallion. Versatility, staying power, grass, dirt may also equate to a top synthetic track sire. TJ

TJ - there's one missing ingredient from Sunriver - brilliance. None of his dirt races were anything to write home about, and in his California turf win, he plodded on the lead with bigger plodders behind him.

He might turn out to be a good stallion, but I think he's going to have to go through the ranks like his sire, Saint Ballado, did. What could Sunriver stand at as of today - his full brother, Saint Stephen, is standing for $3,000 in Canada. Is he worth $10,000 compared to Southern Image?

[TJ]

Still grade 1 status is a plus. Third in a classic race on the dirt, won the Peter Pan on the dirt, won a grade 1 on the turf. It's a pretty good resume. He will stand for a fair price and I think he will be a very good stallion. Versatility, staying power, grass, dirt may also equate to a top synthetic track sire. TJ

TJ - there's one missing ingredient from Sunriver - brilliance. None of his dirt races were anything to write home about, and in his California turf win, he plodded on the lead with bigger plodders behind him.

He might turn out to be a good stallion, but I think he's going to have to go through the ranks like his sire, Saint Ballado, did. What could Sunriver stand at as of today - his full brother, Saint Stephen, is standing for $3,000 in Canada. Is he worth $10,000 compared to Southern Image?

Hi Roke,
I don't really think I'm qualified to answer that question. But I think it answered another. I think that was the reasoning behind Pletchers statement that started this whole thing:>) The truth is Stallions are entering a new era with the synthetic tracks becoming more prevalent. Horses like Sunriver who has a decent pedigree and has won on 2 surfaces has to be thought of as versatile. The new stallions in the sythetic track era will also have to be. I know that's what I would promote if he was my horse and I think that versatility will help him attain a higher stud fee. TJ

[Rokeby Forever]

The truth is Stallions are entering a new era with the synthetic tracks becoming more prevalent.

You're absolutely right, TJ, but here's a question: If you're looking for an "artificial surface" sire, why not go to one that actually ran and won on an artificial surface? I don't think it's a given that just because a horse likes the turf, his progeny will like Polytrack or Cushion/Tapeta.

I think you'll see it exposed during the BC in California next year - you're going to see some dirt and maybe some turf horses love the artificial, and some hate it. The colts that love the artificial will be called "Potential artificial sires," but what about the ones that run a clunker on the surface? Should the winner of the JCGC, Vosburgh, Champagne, or any major dirt prep be dismissed from being a stallion prospect if they can't handle the Cushion?

With that in mind, why go to Sunriver when his full brother, Saint Stephen, won on the artificials in California?

[Green Hills]

1. you and tuc both are missing the big picture.


YOu are an owner. Tuc is a trainer. neither of you would be able to do what you love to do if it were not for fans, rather you think they are right, rather you think they are wrong, or whatever, unless owners started paying the allowence purses themselves or tacks did, the money that pays your p8urses, that you in turn pay trainers like tuc with, comes from the same fans that you are both blasting for being stupid.

Well...I would say, as an owner, at the end of the day if I don't race my horse then fans are superfluous...and why on earth would I race him/her simply for some trophy and the whole "rah team" stuff??

getting to the preimise of horse racing, horse racing is when you have a horse, and you enter him or her into a race against other horses of like ability. Yes, at the end of the day you have to make a profit, I and everyone gets that. no one is asking you or anyone to do wrong by the horse, but breeding, sales, trainer and jockey salaries would not be there without horse racing which in turn would not be there without purses.

And also...racing to be worth more and racing to be the best...well...little secret...to an owner it's the same thing.

considering english isn't my first language, this might as well been in hyrogflics

please rephrase that (seriously, not joking or trying to be funny) where I can understand it


I've always noticed that people on the "inside" have very little respect for bettors. I remember one trainer calling bettors silly for betting on horses. No one seems to comphrehend that bettors are the motor oil that makes the engine run.


and about what pletcher said about the future, you are twisting my words tuc big time. I frankly don't really care what does wit the horse in the future. Ir eally don't. But it goes back to the old saying if you cant' say anything positive dont' say anyting at all. A "we are looking at options" would have been perfectly fine and this wouldnt' be a story.

IF YOU AS A TRAINER ARE GOING TO TALK TO THE MEDIA ABOUT THE HORSE, TALK ABOUT HIS HORSE RACING CAREER, NOT HIS STUD CAREER

And that in itself is promoting the horse's stud career. When Zito won the Juve with war pass, everyone here knew War Pass was going to stud sooner o alter. hell when he won the champaigne we all knew. however zito never uttered one freaking word about the horses stud potential on the horses biggest day(s) of his career. it wa sall about how good of a horse he had, how special the horse was.. that is all the public wants.



the public, the fans want so badily to get behind a horse. any horse. for any reason. Give them that opprotunity. AS fans that is all we ask. don't show us a glimpse of a special horse and talk about how valuable of a "stud" he is going to be. that's dispicalable and a slap in the face to every bettor who goes to the tracks in the dead of winter in hopes of seeing ag reat horse like myself.

As I said, when he realized he could no longer make GRI status on the dirt he was switched to turf.

I might be wrong, but sunriver NEVER was a grade 1 dirt horse. the first I ever heard of him was the preakness.

Ya, Carl posesses more horsemanship than many, but they are also retiring a horse that could maybe have been an interesting older horse.

and again you missed the entire point of the post. We KNOW there are millions upon millions of dollars for great horses at the end of the racing rainbow. we get that. all we ask is that you give the horse and the horse fans their time to bask in the short lived racing career that is the race horse.

Carl didn't ruin Steet Sense's Travers about talking about how this will "certainly be a notch" on his stud career or any silly shit like that. and you know what... every person here stil knew about where street sense was going to stand at stud for without him having to have to spit it out. He dind't get on the cetner stage last year at the breeders cup juve and say "well, no other stud has done this, win the juve by 10 lengths". do you see how silly it sounds now? let the fans, the fans have their horse.

TJ, I have the entire article, it was not taken out of context.

You are wrong...I have a great deal of respect for the bettor and the handicapper, we are all part of the same system, each of equal value to the other...but let's tell the truth, for all the platitudes about understanding our need to successful in a business sense, you are complaining about what a trainer said to the media??? Who cares??? He said the truth...and that's always to be prized, except, obviously, by you. Let's face facts...a trainer does not answer to the bettors or the fans, he's not a football coach. He answers to the people who pay his fees...uhmmm...that would be his owners. And, whether you like Todd or not, he DOES answer and answer well to his owners.

This whole thing is like a tempest in a teacup. Todd publically reassured his owners that this has helped the horse's future value. That's him, doing his job. Get the feel good stuff from the columnists and rah rah folks. I want my trainer to say, publically and privately..."Your horse now is worth more...on and off the track." That's reality. And that's super valuable.

Oh and to clarify: To an owner, if the horse is worth more than any other horse, that makes him the best horse. (Rightly or wrongly from an esoteric point of view.)

[bdw0617]

Who cares

I care. this guy and the guys that left comments seem to give a shit too


http://leftatthegate.blogspot.com/2007/ ... dec-9.html

some of thoos epeople who left comments I know, they are people who I respsect. and they also give a shit.

[Rokeby Forever]

some of thoos epeople who left comments I know, they are people who I respsect. and they also give a shit.

Who cares???

I'm with Green Hills. I don't give a s*it. LOL!

[Green Hills]

Who cares

I care. this guy and the guys that left comments seem to give a shit too


http://leftatthegate.blogspot.com/2007/ ... dec-9.html

some of thoos epeople who left comments I know, they are people who I respsect. and they also give a shit.

You focus on two words out of the whole explanation??? I give up...never mind...one can't convince the convinced.

[bdw0617]

then we agree to disagree because that really did get under my skin. it is not law that it has to get under yours.

[TJ]

The truth is Stallions are entering a new era with the synthetic tracks becoming more prevalent.

You're absolutely right, TJ, but here's a question: If you're looking for an "artificial surface" sire, why not go to one that actually ran and won on an artificial surface? I don't think it's a given that just because a horse likes the turf, his progeny will like Polytrack or Cushion/Tapeta.

I think you'll see it exposed during the BC in California next year - you're going to see some dirt and maybe some turf horses love the artificial, and some hate it. The colts that love the artificial will be called "Potential artificial sires," but what about the ones that run a clunker on the surface? Should the winner of the JCGC, Vosburgh, Champagne, or any major dirt prep be dismissed from being a stallion prospect if they can't handle the Cushion?

With that in mind, why go to Sunriver when his full brother, Saint Stephen, won on the artificials in California?

Hi Roke,
My own personal opinion of synthetic track racing makes me believe turf horses will prefer that surface compared to horses that prefer dirt tracks. A key factor (in my opinion) why some horses prefer turf racing is because they do not like clods of dirt being kicked back in their face and hitting their body. There is much less kick back over the synthetic tracks. I'm not saying that dirt horses won't run well over synthetic, but some that have never set foot on it may need a race or two to get used to it.
The other topic concerning the sires, heck a horses is a horse. An accomplished horse that goes to the breeding shed no matter what surface he won over will be supported, there is just a new rinkle now that sythetic tracks are the rage. TJ

[Tucumcari]

1. you and tuc both are missing the big picture.


YOu are an owner. Tuc is a trainer. neither of you would be able to do what you love to do if it were not for fans, rather you think they are right, rather you think they are wrong, or whatever, unless owners started paying the allowence purses themselves or tacks did, the money that pays your p8urses, that you in turn pay trainers like tuc with, comes from the same fans that you are both blasting for being stupid.


Psst.. I'm an owner too...
That's not true, we wouldn't be able to do what we do without gamblers. Fans are just fans. Not that the price of admission a hot dog and a 2 dollar wager isn't a contributer, but Gamblers help alot! Whoo hoo you like a horse... go bet a few hundred on it and then lets talk. Further more, fans are as fickle as horsemen. Always willing to hop onto and off of a horse's bandwagon. I was a fan before I was ever involved with horse racing in any capacity, And I was sad to see the odd one retire, but there is always another one to take it's place.

I've always noticed that people on the "inside" have very little respect for bettors. I remember one trainer calling bettors silly for betting on horses. No one seems to comphrehend that bettors are the motor oil that makes the engine run.

Oh please that's such old news he gambles as does his main owner. He was under significant scrutiny when that statement was made.
And see now you get it BETTORS not necessarily "fans."


and about what pletcher said about the future, you are twisting my words tuc big time. I frankly don't really care what does wit the horse in the future. Ir eally don't. But it goes back to the old saying if you cant' say anything positive dont' say anyting at all. A "we are looking at options" would have been perfectly fine and this wouldnt' be a story.

IF YOU AS A TRAINER ARE GOING TO TALK TO THE MEDIA ABOUT THE HORSE, TALK ABOUT HIS HORSE RACING CAREER, NOT HIS STUD CAREER

YES! You as a fan/gambler don't know what the horse's wheels look like. Or what physical ailments he has to overcome. Breeding season is just around the corner and they might be in the market to find another career for this horse.
I'm not twisting your words. People who deal in horses continually try to manage a horse such that they have value at the end of their racing careers. It's good business. They have options. And now as a result of this win he might have higher value. I see nothing wrong with what he said. I stand by that.

And that in itself is promoting the horse's stud career. When Zito won the Juve with war pass, everyone here knew War Pass was going to stud sooner o alter. hell when he won the champaigne we all knew. however zito never uttered one freaking word about the horses stud potential on the horses biggest day(s) of his career. it wa sall about how good of a horse he had, how special the horse was.. that is all the public wants.

Maybe there are other factors that resulted in a horse's stud career. Would you breed to a horse that had a very brief racing career? Why was his career so short? Zito isn't one not to hunt for a TC race. It's what we dream of! Why "end" it with a "special" horse before it really begins? If this horse is so special, then why not prove it to the fans. After all they are the ones that matter. It's the horse that matters, it is the gamblers and slots and whatever we currently need to sustain purses and maintenance
Fans, Yes they have a roll, but not why we race or breed horses. We do it to win races. To seek that elusive GR1 horse, to win a BC or TC race... not to make a fan happy or unhappy. And ya, money plays a part, a HUGE part! Why do you think Barbaro wasn't euthanized on the track like 99.9% of the horses who sustain a like injury would have been. His stud fee if they had gotten him that far would be huge as there would be a very select and limited number of mares bred to him... then the babies would be worth a mint... again small pool to get one from. It wasn't solely because people lit a candle or fell in love with him. BUT he likely was partially made to suffer for as long as he did because there would have been a public outcry after they tried to save him. Had he been euthanized on the track it would never have been a movie of the week with a tragic ending. It was a tragic ending, but he didn't need to suffer for so long. Those same fans fell in love with Curlin this year. Invasor...etc

Ya, Carl posesses more horsemanship than many, but they are also retiring a horse that could maybe have been an interesting older horse.

and again you missed the entire point of the post. We KNOW there are millions upon millions of dollars for great horses at the end of the racing rainbow. we get that. all we ask is that you give the horse and the horse fans their time to bask in the short lived racing career that is the race horse.

I didn't miss your point, you just don't get it.


Carl didn't ruin Steet Sense's Travers about talking about how this will "certainly be a notch" on his stud career or any silly shit like that. and you know what... every person here stil knew about where street sense was going to stand at stud for without him having to have to spit it out. He dind't get on the cetner stage last year at the breeders cup juve and say "well, no other stud has done this, win the juve by 10 lengths". do you see how silly it sounds now? let the fans, the fans have their horse.

They had their horse. Find a new one to get on board with.
You know what Todd did was take a horse who had VERY limited options as far as stud value goes, and create some. Made mention of it, and solidifies that he will have more horses than he will know what to do with. Part of his job is baing a promoter. Of the horse and his "product." He did that very well

[Rokeby Forever]

Let's face facts...a trainer does not answer to the bettors or the fans

BINGO!!!

This is such a ridiculous argument.

All I hear about baseball right now is how much free agents are being offered and how much they sign for or turn down. Does player loyalty to fans mean anything , or will a player go to a team that offers the best contract? I don't hear a SINGLE baseball player on TV saying, "I took half as much to stay with my current team because I love the fans." They could care less about fans! The Twins are trying to trade Johan Santana because they can't afford to resign him - do you hear Johan Santana saying, "I love the fans in Minnesota, so I'll take half as much to stay here?"

Baseball is all about $$$ - but come April 1st, the stadiums will still be packed and players could care less if fans show up or not. Why should racing be held to a different standard? Trainers don't get up at 4AM for their health, owners don't invest in horses because they have nothing else to do, and riders don't risk their lives in every race they ride just to get exercise - the business is about $$$. Period!