I don't understand what matz is doing with union rags

[kimberley mine]

I think when Matz is training at Fair Hill he's probably doing more stamina type gallops. If the horses are on track, they can't get the same kind of foundation or maintain it. I wonder how long that foundation holds up - or does it crumble over time without sustaining training?

jm

It IS possible to do stamina-type work at the track, with proper planning. The problem is that the way morning workouts are set up, the financial incentive is such that the exercise riders will want to be on the horses working shorter distances, not the routine 3-4 mile runs. Either one needs a salaried exercise rider, or one needs double the amount of dedicated riders paid at a higher rate to ride the longer distances and finish morning workouts by the track-appointed time. At a training centre, where the pace of the day is more relaxed, it's easier to work around this.

Without undergoing sustained training, fitness in human athletes will hold up for about 2-3 weeks and then slowly start to decline. It's not a precipitous dropoff, more a slow wasting. It can be regained more quickly than starting from scratch, but the big danger here is in injury or overtraining.

[bdw0617]

I think when Matz is training at Fair Hill he's probably doing more stamina type gallops. If the horses are on track, they can't get the same kind of foundation or maintain it. I wonder how long that foundation holds up - or does it crumble over time without sustaining training?

jm

It IS possible to do stamina-type work at the track, with proper planning. The problem is that the way morning workouts are set up, the financial incentive is such that the exercise riders will want to be on the horses working shorter distances, not the routine 3-4 mile runs. Either one needs a salaried exercise rider, or one needs double the amount of dedicated riders paid at a higher rate to ride the longer distances and finish morning workouts by the track-appointed time. At a training centre, where the pace of the day is more relaxed, it's easier to work around this.

Without undergoing sustained training, fitness in human athletes will hold up for about 2-3 weeks and then slowly start to decline. It's not a precipitous dropoff, more a slow wasting. It can be regained more quickly than starting from scratch, but the big danger here is in injury or overtraining.

I akin it to basketball practice in the sense that you could do sprints all day long (and we did sometimes literally) in practice, but regardless of how long you ran, it could not 100% prepare you for game speed and chasing someone down/ running up and down a court full speed for 32-40 minutes regardless of how much practice you had. Not only that, not only do you have to be able to run, you have to be able to think clearly as you are getting tired. if you are shooting from a far distance you still have to be able to get lift on your shot int he 4th quarter, you still have to be able to hit free throws,l you still have to be able to handle the ball up court, at least i did, you still have to be able to move your feet and stay in front of the guy with the basketball when playing defense without hacking/using your hands, you still have to keep the man in front of you by staying in front of him in other words not reaching and grabbing at the player / fouling.

that takes a few games to get into which is why we would always have a scrimmage then we would go and play in a tournament or something before our regular season usually started so we could get in game shape.

IMHO that's why the aussies start their horses out at 7F then work out like every week or so. they are racing them into shape. and they can run much further than our horses can.

racing into shape does not always mean you will automatically get better each time out either. it might take a few races under your belt. you might finish further back this time then you did last time becuase you are probably going further. but eventually you will build up to where you need to be, you will be able to process more 02 faster, your lungs wont burn as bad when you breathe, you get used to it. we aren't letting our horses get used to it. too much shock. you just can't gallop a horse in the morning for 2-3 months then throw him out in the Kentucky derby

[diomed]

I akin it to basketball practice in the sense that you could do sprints all day long (and we did sometimes literally) in practice, but regardless of how long you ran, it could not 100% prepare you for game speed and chasing someone down/ running up and down a court full speed for 32-40 minutes regardless of how much practice you had. Not only that, not only do you have to be able to run, you have to be able to think clearly as you are getting tired. if you are shooting from a far distance you still have to be able to get lift on your shot int he 4th quarter, you still have to be able to hit free throws,l you still have to be able to handle the ball up court, at least i did, you still have to be able to move your feet and stay in front of the guy with the basketball when playing defense without hacking/using your hands, you still have to keep the man in front of you by staying in front of him in other words not reaching and grabbing at the player / fouling.

that takes a few games to get into which is why we would always have a scrimmage then we would go and play in a tournament or something before our regular season usually started so we could get in game shape.

IMHO that's why the aussies start their horses out at 7F then work out like every week or so. they are racing them into shape. and they can run much further than our horses can.

racing into shape does not always mean you will automatically get better each time out either. it might take a few races under your belt. you might finish further back this time then you did last time becuase you are probably going further. but eventually you will build up to where you need to be, you will be able to process more 02 faster, your lungs wont burn as bad when you breathe, you get used to it. we aren't letting our horses get used to it. too much shock. you just can't gallop a horse in the morning for 2-3 months then throw him out in the Kentucky derby

Speaking of BB, not to hi-jack but my favorite coach used to KILL us in practice. We had to run "man-killers" before we even practiced plays. They were brutal but that kind of conditioning really helped with game-time fitness. The "second wind" would come a lot faster during a game. That coach would also not allow you to leave until you made 5 free throws in a row right after all that running. We led our league in FT percentage and we won a lot of games because of it. God, I miss playing BB.
Man-killers BTW, were a flat out sprint from the out of bounds line to the free throw line and back to the out of bounds line then to the half court line then back to the out of bounds line then to the other free throw line, then back. Then a full court sprint. We would do numerous in a practice. Sometimes you almost puked.

[ElPrado]

I play pool tournaments. One started at 10 AM Saturday morning, lasted till 4 AM Sunday morning. It was a 2 day tournament. We came back at 10 AM. Played until about 8 PM. We had 72 players. I finished 5th. I was playing the current world champ when I fell asleep in the middle of the match.

[bdw0617]

I akin it to basketball practice in the sense that you could do sprints all day long (and we did sometimes literally) in practice, but regardless of how long you ran, it could not 100% prepare you for game speed and chasing someone down/ running up and down a court full speed for 32-40 minutes regardless of how much practice you had. Not only that, not only do you have to be able to run, you have to be able to think clearly as you are getting tired. if you are shooting from a far distance you still have to be able to get lift on your shot int he 4th quarter, you still have to be able to hit free throws,l you still have to be able to handle the ball up court, at least i did, you still have to be able to move your feet and stay in front of the guy with the basketball when playing defense without hacking/using your hands, you still have to keep the man in front of you by staying in front of him in other words not reaching and grabbing at the player / fouling.

that takes a few games to get into which is why we would always have a scrimmage then we would go and play in a tournament or something before our regular season usually started so we could get in game shape.

IMHO that's why the aussies start their horses out at 7F then work out like every week or so. they are racing them into shape. and they can run much further than our horses can.

racing into shape does not always mean you will automatically get better each time out either. it might take a few races under your belt. you might finish further back this time then you did last time becuase you are probably going further. but eventually you will build up to where you need to be, you will be able to process more 02 faster, your lungs wont burn as bad when you breathe, you get used to it. we aren't letting our horses get used to it. too much shock. you just can't gallop a horse in the morning for 2-3 months then throw him out in the Kentucky derby

Speaking of BB, not to hi-jack but my favorite coach used to KILL us in practice. We had to run "man-killers" before we even practiced plays. They were brutal but that kind of conditioning really helped with game-time fitness. The "second wind" would come a lot faster during a game. That coach would also not allow you to leave until you made 5 free throws in a row right after all that running. We led our league in FT percentage and we won a lot of games because of it. God, I miss playing BB.
Man-killers BTW, were a flat out sprint from the out of bounds line to the free throw line and back to the out of bounds line then to the half court line then back to the out of bounds line then to the other free throw line, then back. Then a full court sprint. We would do numerous in a practice. Sometimes you almost puked.

we had a different name for them but yeah I know what youa re talking about. you start under the goal and you run to the first free throw line then back, then you run to what, the half court line then back then to the other end free throw linen and back then the other out of line down and back and that's 1 set. then the other half of the team would be at the other end of the court and they do the same thing. yeah those sucked lol.

our coach had us do a lot of 5 in 1's which is jsut down the court and back 5 times in less than 1 minute. once you get used to it actually isn't that hard to do, could do it with like 5-6 seconds left if you are pushing it. but we would do like 30 sets of them lol. we would break the team up into guards and fowards.. forwards got a 2 second grace period before the cock started, but yeah as soon as one end done the ohter end had to start.

but the whole point is even with all that, and we were not a half court team we pressed we pushed the ball we ran.. I remember teh first year i started which was my junior year the first game the middle of the second quarter i damn near had to drag myself to the locker room at half tim i was so tired. it's a whole different level of conditioning. that you can only prepare for by being in a game

[kimberley mine]

that takes a few games to get into which is why we would always have a scrimmage then we would go and play in a tournament or something before our regular season usually started so we could get in game shape.

In polo, we do about 4 weeks of walking/trotting/canter sets in progression. 2-3 days a week once the horses are up to trotting, we start stick and ball work in the afternoon. It's not fast, it's precision, and drills. Sometimes that means trotting or cantering in a circle while the rider chases the ball, sometimes it's foreshot/backshot/rollback practice. It's tiring for the horse and frankly kind of boring, but it brings lightness and agility training into the horse's workout regimen.

By the time the horses are on regular canter sets, it's practice chukkers 2-3 days a week. Full-on, all cantering, riding off, hooking, the whole nine yards. The day after chukkers the horses go for their morning canter sets but have the afternoon off. Practice chukkers are essential to getting the horses fit enough for tournament play. Even being behind the competition by 1-2 weeks makes a huge and noticeable difference in the horses' fitness levels.

IMHO that's why the aussies start their horses out at 7F then work out like every week or so. they are racing them into shape. and they can run much further than our horses can.

Not only do you see the Aussie and Kiwi horses going up the WFA ladder, you see different race patterns for different groups of horses. There's a 7f graded stake coming up soon that will be full of returning stayers who are getting fit to run 2 miles. They follow 7f-9f-10f-12f-14f up the way, adding distance as they add fitness. The returning sprinters and milers start with the 10f horses and move into their own category as the season progresses.

The South Africans have a similar ladder for their big summer races, from the Summer Cup through to the J&B Met.

The important thing to note about the Aussie and Kiwi ladders is that those progressions all happen in the same state/district. The WFA ladder I posted previously was in Sydney, at Randwick and Rosehill, so the horses don't have to ship far to get to where they run. In the Thread That Never Dies, I once posted a hypothetical schedule for my Nice Horse if I only wanted to run in New York, and found that if I wanted to run in NY and wanted to run in graded stakes only, then basically I ran once a month.

Here's a hypothetical schedule for a 4yo turf route male in NY, assuming he comes off a winter break in April and is pointed for the Sword Dancer at Saratoga:

May 5 Fort Marcy 8.5f Belmont
May 27 Connaught Cup 7f Woodbine
June 8 Jaipur 7f Belmont
June 9 Manhattan 10f Belmont
June 12 Monmouth Stakes 9f Monmouth
July 2 United Nations Stakes 11f Monmouth
July 4 Poker 8f Belmont
July 14 Man'o'War 11f Belmont
July 22 Nijinsky 9f Woodbine
Aug 3 John's Call 13f Saratoga
Aug 11 Fourstardave 8f Saratoga
Aug 18 Sword Dancer 12f Saratoga

A good ladder would be the Connaught Cup, Monmouth, United Nations, Man'O'War, John's Call, and Sword Dancer. After that,you could have a 2-3 week rest and bring your horse back for the Joe Hirsch (Oct 1), Canadian International (Oct 14), and BC (Nov 3).

But if you only want to run in Gr-1 races--you're chasing after a champion turf male title--then you have the Manhattan, United Nations, Man'O'War, and Sword Dancer, and that's it. 4 races in 5 months--can't race a horse fit that way. And if you only want to run in New York, the way the races are structured it is impossible to build a good ladder!

[Mahubah]

Great posts from several of you regarding "racing up the distance ladder" for fitness. Are there any American trainers who still do this? I know the Jones boys of Calumet had no compunctions about dropping their stable stars into allowances to get them good and fit for later events, especially early in the season -- Hirsch Jacobs was another that felt a horse got a lot more out of a race than a workout, even if the distance was really too short for the horse.

[Sysonby]

Great posts from several of you regarding "racing up the distance ladder" for fitness. Are there any American trainers who still do this? I know the Jones boys of Calumet had no compunctions about dropping their stable stars into allowances to get them good and fit for later events, especially early in the season -- Hirsch Jacobs was another that felt a horse got a lot more out of a race than a workout, even if the distance was really too short for the horse.

Of course they have to be eligible for the conditions of the allowance races being written by the local racing secretary. Not every track writes non stakes races that stakes winners can run in and if they do, it either can be tough to fill or may not be on the surface or condition that the trainer needs.

[Shammy Davis]

Sysonby wrote:

Speaking of BB, not to hi-jack but my favorite coach used to KILL us in practice. We had to run "man-killers" before we even practiced plays. They were brutal but that kind of conditioning really helped with game-time fitness. The "second wind" would come a lot faster during a game. That coach would also not allow you to leave until you made 5 free throws in a row right after all that running. We led our league in FT percentage and we won a lot of games because of it. God, I miss playing BB.
Man-killers BTW, were a flat out sprint from the out of bounds line to the free throw line and back to the out of bounds line then to the half court line then back to the out of bounds line then to the other free throw line, then back. Then a full court sprint. We would do numerous in a practice. Sometimes you almost puked.

The best BB is on the Atlantic Coast and if you didn't play there the only "killer" would have been to play "pathetic" BB in another region. Just another of my biased opinions.

[bdw0617]

told ya.

horse wants no part of a route. hit a brick wall around the turn. he's circular quay reincarnated.

[Georgerz]

Take Charge Indy's "stock" has risen considerably with this win. Gate to wire, and put away any challengers with easy.

[diomed]

Take Charge Indy's "stock" has risen considerably with this win. Gate to wire, and put away any challengers with easy.

I was impressed by him today. Most Indys don't have that kind of speed early. Borel really rode a great race. I looked at Take Charge Indy's pedigree. Brilliant match. AP Indy(stamina) over a mare that is totally bred for speed(Dehere/Rubiano). It might not be enough for 10f but he is a pain in the rear for 9f.

[AscotStud]

The brick wall he hit was Leparoux's hands, he was in his mouth for at least a quarter mile. Once he got in the clear when the race was over he was gaining with every stride...worst ride ever.

[bdw0617]

i bumped this thread for a reason not to glao necessarily. see this is aht i mean

now you have a horse, that now has distance limitation questions (Which he had all along but no one wanted to acknowledge), with only 2 preps going into a 10F race. the 2 race before the derby angle works if you have a freak. as you saw today union rags is not freak. he's a good horse that is not bred to go long. any chance of him getting 10F went out when matz made his patsy derby trail schedule. he won't come close to getting the distance.


now all matz can really do is make excuses as to why he didn't run well becuase he's backed into a training corner.

[diomed]

I too question UR's genetic ability to go 10 f..Heck even 9f now. But we will see come the first Saturday in May.
I even question TCI for the 10f because of his female family.
Personally Creative Cause and Alpha are the horses I am watching right now. I can't wait until next weekend.