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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:17 am 
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Weanling

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:50 am
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Location: Pa.
I don't know if this goes on everyday, but I know it happens occasionally. We had a mare entered in a 50k stakes race and our chances looked good to sit right off the pace and close right before the wire. Somehow 4 speed horses were late scratches and the stewards scatched another at the gate. With no speed horses in the race, the race was a merry go round with our horse running 2nd the whole trip. So this guy bought a black type win for his mare and will get a return on her progeny at the sales.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:32 am 
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Allowance Winner
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Hey Frank,

In the race you where in was it off the turf a muddy track or the horses where cross entered somewhere else?I realy doubt that someone could come up with enough money to buy 4 horses out of a stakes race and that the stewards where in on it by scratching one at the gate.

In a side note for all that where so offended about Ramsey,where are your comments about the guy in Louisiana who ran the wrong horse in a race,when off as favorite,got claimed and only got a 1000$ fine?Seems to me that is a heck off a worse offense than Ramsey's???????? :roll:

Ryeno

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:39 am 
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Breeder's Cup Contender

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:18 am
Posts: 1944
Location: Louisiana
The guy that ran the wrong horse at Delta Downs got a 1K fine which was the most the stewards could give him. Now it has been turned over to the Racing Commission. Translation: Hes probably going to be suspended for a period of time by the Racing Commission. This thing is not over at all.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:44 am 
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Grade II Winner

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:55 pm
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Location: Kentucky
This is a quote from the TB Times article talking about the fact that the trainer was a former nun:

<<"I didn’t have to make a decision," Conner told Daily Racing Form. "It was wrong.

"When something like this happens, the owner is hurt," she said. "The trainer is hurt. The rider is hurt. But the biggest loser is the industry.">>

Frankly, in my opinion, this is all much ado about nearly nothing. All Conner had to do was say no to the offer. As far as we've been told there wasn't any coercion involved. She can be as sanctimonious as she wants about what happened but the person who damaged the industry wasn't Ramsey, it was Conner herself.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:14 am 
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Great post LSB and well put!

Ryeno

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"The easiest way to end up with a million dollars in the horseracing business is to start with 3 million!"


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:43 am 
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Freshman Sire
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hi guys...hello LSB

The TB Times (Jan 22 issue-P.34) wrote...QUOTE. "Ken Ramsey, an Eclipse Award finalist for outstanding owner and a leading owner in Kentucky, is under investigation by the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority for allegedly offering money to Turfway Park horsemen (plural) to scratch their horses (plural) from a race so his horse could draw into the contest."

LSB wrote "Frankly, in my opinion, this is all much ado about nearly nothing."

Maybe so...but I suggest this is some of the nonsense that affects the public trust... perception...opinion...sentiment...or whatever you want to call it.

If someone doesn't like the rule(s) they can work to change them...but they shouldn't expect special treatment if they break them. And I suggest it is incumbent upon every thoroughbred racing jurisdiction (and/or authority) to do everything within its power to maintain a beyond-reproach reputation.

I suggest that no one (owner...trainer...asst trainer...jockey...valet...racing-official...steward...agent...vet...groom...pari-mutuel employee...clerk...etc etc etc) is entitled to a "free pass" within the pari-mutuel system if he/she is involved in behavior (and/or actions) that is deemed an offense under the jurisdiction's rules.

Each jurisdiction may have different procedures...fines...suspensions etc etc etc...but without strict enforcement I suggest that the "public-trust" can erode and the successful future of pari-mutuel horseracing would be undermined.

Don't you agree that integrity is a necessary keystone of horse racing...and it must be closely guarded and protected as a public-trust? Otherwise isn't there a risk that horse racing (and the results) could be considered a sham (whether real or perceived).

And if racing diminishes (or worst-case fails) isn't it reasonable to suggest that our broodmares would decrease in value (or could possibly become near-WORTHLESS)? Could the show-horse market absorb 35,000 thoroughbred weanlings (many by high-priced stallions out of high-priced mares) a year...And what about the yearlings and 2 year-olds etc? hmmm.

So unless the "public trust" is a priority and rule-breaking actions are exposed and dealt with appropriately...I suggest there is a very strong probability that public confidence erodes and the future of thoroughbred horse-racing (and breeding) suffers.

Respectfully


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:11 am 
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Grade II Winner

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FOS, you're addressing something that I didn't say, and putting words in my mouth doesn't bolster your argument.

Of course an episode like this is bad for the industry--as I stated in my previous post. But IN MY OPINION what we have here is more the perception of wrong-doing than actual wrong-doing. That perception was created not by Ramsey's actions, but by what Conner did by making such a big fuss after the fact.

Ramsey wanted his horse to draw into a race (most likely to help Catienus's chances of being the top 1st year sire by number of winners.) He approached a trainer whose horse was unlikely to factor in the outcome of the race and offered her an incentive to withdraw her entry. Perhaps he offered her more than the horse earned by running in the race. She declined the offer. That should have been the end of the story.

At the time this happened, no bets had been placed on the race. Nobody in "the public" had any stake in the outcome. Probably only a few people in the entire world would have cared if that horse was scratched and they were the ones making the decision whether or not to do it. IN MY OPINION, it was a very small matter that got blown all out of proportion.

Talking about broodmares being rendered worthless and weanlings creating a glut on the horse show market is a smokescreen. Since you seem to be an onlooker rather than a participant in the industry, I respectfully suggest that sometimes things appear different from the inside than they do from without.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:25 pm 
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Maiden Special Weight
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Location: Kansas
Would it be okay if Ramsey had offered the racing secretary a bribe to make sure his horse made the field? Nobody is hurt right?

Or if a person had a colt or filly that they wanted to earn black type, would it be okay for that person to bribe the trainers of the other entrants to scratch there horses? (Much like that described above) Nobody is hurt right? That colt or filly just increased in value with a little more investment.

As long as nobody really gets hurt, anything goes, right? Or are there some rules that it is okay to break and others that are not? This is all just left up to the person wanting to break them, right?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:14 pm 
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Thats what alot of you seem to be missing.Do you think trainers enter horses in stakes races just for the heck of it?We are talking about a maiden race at Turfway no less with a purse of less than 20 g's.If a trainer/owner submits early nominations ,monies to enter in the race,monies to pass the entry wicket do you really think a person is going to actually bribe their way into it?I know that it wont happen.If i enter a horse in a stake it is because I feel I have a shot at some money and some Black type or even the win.If we are talking a 50 grander thats over 25 grand to the winner and aint no thousand bucks gonna draw me out and I dont think it would draw anybody out either.Remember when Baffert entered a horse in the KY Derby a few years back to keep another one out and then scratched the day of and that person cant draw in?Evedently their is nothing wrong with that as long as your horse has earned enough money to make the body of the race.It can also work the other way as well.
Ryeno

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"The easiest way to end up with a million dollars in the horseracing business is to start with 3 million!"


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:22 pm 
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Freshman Sire
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hi LSB

You wrote "FOS, you're addressing something that I didn't say, and putting words in my mouth doesn't bolster your argument."

LSB, I did not put any words in your mouth...this is EXACTLY what you wrote "Frankly, in my opinion, this is all much ado about nearly nothing."

LSB...you can rewrite...respin...attempt to diminish...or whatever you want...

...but I suggest that the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority understood the gravity (and possible ramifications) related to such an event and acted swiftly and responsibly. Chairman Bill Street said "Given the speed of the settlement and the facts as we knew them, I think the penalty was appropriate."

LSB you wrote "Talking about broodmares being rendered worthless and weanlings creating a glut on the horse show market is a smokescreen. Since you seem to be an onlooker rather than a participant in the industry, I respectfully suggest that sometimes things appear different from the inside than they do from without."

FROM THE INSIDE (from where I see it) Mr. R's action was totally unacceptable (at the very least)...and the Ky Horse Racing Authority apparently viewed it as a violation and rendered what it felt were appropriate penalties. Street said that the penalties "send a strong message that this authority would deal with violations as swiftly as possible to maintain the integrity of racing in Kentucky."

LSB you wrote "Probably only a few people in the entire world would have cared if that horse was scratched and they were the ones making the decision whether or not to do it. IN MY OPINION, it was a very small matter that got blown all out of proportion."

Respectfully...I'm surprised at your evaluation of the events.

By the way...you may want to read an article (linked below) re: the fine and suspension which includes comments from Chairman Street and board Vice Chairwoman Whitfield. Whitfield is quoted "I thought the settlement should have come with tougher terms, stricter penalties." Whitfield said "The recent indictments in New York provided the background for the authority to be tougher on these kind of activities."

The article might enlighten you.

Ramsey fined,suspended for unethical practices

Respectfully


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:33 pm 
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Maiden Special Weight
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Location: Kansas
One thousand dollars might not be enough, but what about a larger amount? Is it okay because it's not real big money? In other words, rules don't really apply if the amounts are small and nobody gets hurt? I guess the level of acceptability is up to whoever is involved, right? Just disregard if it's right or wrong?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:21 pm 
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Maiden Special Weight

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:56 pm
Posts: 192
That is a great point ryeno, every day trainers enter two or three horses in races in order to fill the race for a specific runner, with no intention of running those horses. He knows he will scratch them as soon as the race fills. How is this any different manipulation than what Ramsey did? Any damage done to the reputation of the industry was done by the holier than thou wannbe trainer. She should have simply declined the business proposition and moved on. Instead like a kid telling the teacher who was talking in class, she runs to the stewards and an eclipse award nominee who helps support countless families in the industry gets raked through the papers and horse racing once again gets crap publicity.
What if he gets pissed off and gets out of the business, that would be the black eye. If he had offered someone money to not try their best with their horse, hes gone, out permanently. This is not even close to what happened.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:35 pm 
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Maiden Special Weight

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I must add another point, we talk about how this is a black eye on horse racing. Here is a real black eye, read the article in todays wall street journal about the immigrant female worker at Harris Farms in California who won a million dollar judgement against Harris for being repeatedly
raped and harrassed by farm foremen. This is supposedly one of the top breeding farms in Cal. and John Harris is and industry leader. Not my idea of good publicity for racing and breeding.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:43 am 
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Weanling

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:50 am
Posts: 30
Location: Pa.
Reyeno, You're right! If every horsed that scratched paid the entry fee, then they mast have all came up lame before the race!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:15 am 
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Eclipse Champion
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
The trainer did what her conscience told her was the right thing to do, in telling the stewards. Mr. Ramsey did what he thought was the right thing to do, forgetting that not everyone can be bought for a price. A good lesson to learn, in my opinion, and he got his public spanking. Maybe others will think twice about offering bribes for awhile.

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