best and worst racetracks
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wilf
- Breeder's Cup Contender
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You guys are gonna love this!!!!! At Fort Erie Racetrack every summer they run a turf race called the Puss N Boots Stakes which is named after a particular horse that jumped the hedge during a turf race and ended up in one of the infield lakes and his trainer and jockey jumped in to rescue him. Every year after the race, both the owner and trainer jump into the lake after the infield winners presentation.Sometimes its not a pretty sight as in 2003 when the overweight lady trainer jumped in after stripping down to her underwear. Anyway its always a great race and a lot of fun. Oh yes the turf course and main track are excellent and as a little aside; the greatest all around thoroughbred that EVER walked the earth broke his maiden there.....
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sulphurfire
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Tucumcari
- Chef de Race: Brilliant
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- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:51 am
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I thought Turfway was an appallingly bad surface. It is un even and wavy. During rain one turn is dry and th other has washouts along the rail.. When it's dry it's too deep... I hated it...
I thought that Churchill and Keenland both were good evenly mixed tracks. Our horses trained good over it no matter the weather. Joints came back tight and the horses stayed sound. At Keeneland I didn't train on the training track, but I did spend alot of time watching the horses train on it. And I didn't like the way horses that had sore hind ends didn't get ahold of the new surface. The looked like they were struggling to get over it. That said I do think that it is tons kinder to horses that have front end ailments. It is soft and kind. It was the most amazing when it was wey. The main track was SOAKED and the training track was wet for a bout 5mm deep then it was dry.... It was really amazing!!!
Emerald Downs is REALLY hard and fast. Lots of soundness problems there.. HAstings Park has a great wet weather surface. The more water it gets the better the track. Golden Gate struggles with the same problems year after year when it starts to rain. The track gets to be a good 10inches deep and the horses can't get through it well at all. There are lots of injuries.
Although break downs are surface related trainers is where the buck stops for me. A trainer has all of the power. The can decide to train over a bad track or not to. The can jog 2 miles if the track is too bad to gallop or work over it. Or they can stay in the barn. Bad gallop people are also to blame and this too falls on the trainer. There are so few trainers who didctate to their exercise riders how they want things done. I think they need to. Some trainers go through their horses everyday, taking not of injuries and how they are progressing positively or negatively, Some trainers never run through thier horses and either just plain don't look or they have an assistant do it. Hopefully that assistant has some idea what he or she is looking at...
Although track surface plays a roll, the trainers are the ultimate decision maker...
I thought that Churchill and Keenland both were good evenly mixed tracks. Our horses trained good over it no matter the weather. Joints came back tight and the horses stayed sound. At Keeneland I didn't train on the training track, but I did spend alot of time watching the horses train on it. And I didn't like the way horses that had sore hind ends didn't get ahold of the new surface. The looked like they were struggling to get over it. That said I do think that it is tons kinder to horses that have front end ailments. It is soft and kind. It was the most amazing when it was wey. The main track was SOAKED and the training track was wet for a bout 5mm deep then it was dry.... It was really amazing!!!
Emerald Downs is REALLY hard and fast. Lots of soundness problems there.. HAstings Park has a great wet weather surface. The more water it gets the better the track. Golden Gate struggles with the same problems year after year when it starts to rain. The track gets to be a good 10inches deep and the horses can't get through it well at all. There are lots of injuries.
Although break downs are surface related trainers is where the buck stops for me. A trainer has all of the power. The can decide to train over a bad track or not to. The can jog 2 miles if the track is too bad to gallop or work over it. Or they can stay in the barn. Bad gallop people are also to blame and this too falls on the trainer. There are so few trainers who didctate to their exercise riders how they want things done. I think they need to. Some trainers go through their horses everyday, taking not of injuries and how they are progressing positively or negatively, Some trainers never run through thier horses and either just plain don't look or they have an assistant do it. Hopefully that assistant has some idea what he or she is looking at...
Although track surface plays a roll, the trainers are the ultimate decision maker...
tucumcari, were you using that new Keenland training track ? The new composite ? Just wondering.
Our track at Philly is a mess when it get's wet. Our drains are clogged and we are down to about 3" of cushion. just watch a simulcast in the wet and see the jocks ride 5 wide on the lead for good footing..
I hear Delaware is no bargain either for training.
Our track at Philly is a mess when it get's wet. Our drains are clogged and we are down to about 3" of cushion. just watch a simulcast in the wet and see the jocks ride 5 wide on the lead for good footing..
I hear Delaware is no bargain either for training.
From the very first our local track Sam Houston Race Park has been noted by trainers and vets as a very kind surface for training the racehorse - it's been shown to produce far fewer injuries to the lower leg, especially on the front end as other surfaces and it drains fairly quickly after one of our not infrequent "frog stranglers" of a rainstorm. I've seen a bunch of horses walk over to the backside chute in rain coming down so heavy I thought they'd all need snorkles to run in it.....only to have it stop by the start...and the homestretch end up rating as 'fair' not heavy going (except for maybe the one-two lanes closest to the rail) by the time the field circles the turn and heads for the finish. It has an excellent cushion I'm told but while i'ts on the "deep" side it is not so deep as to really impede a horse's running. What I consistently hear from trainers and vets, actively involved owners is that it's a great surface to start the youngsters on or for the horse coming back off an injury. I also have never heard anything but praise for our Turf Course, the Connally Course....problem is it doesn't get used near enough as they "save it" for the turf run stakes towards the end of the meet. Now the backside at Sam Houston is a whole 'nother story - really not as good as it could be, but fairly well maintained given what they have to work with. Shed rows are too close to one another, minimizing the green space available and hotwalkers take up most of that. That kind of proximity in our humid, often stagnant air climate limits any ambient breezes that might cool the barns and aisleways. Roofs are too low and the overhangs are not extended far enough out to protect the exterior aisles/walkways from wind driven rain- they could have designed better barns with more overhang for the windy, rainy days and roofing panels that would let light into the stalls area during the day - (Of course the down side to letting the light in - even if diffused - is you heat up the space too.). On-track housing is an embarassment to my mind - it's downright nasty looking. Our saddling paddock and walking ring while on the modest side in size is decent for both horse and betting crowd. I do think the narrowing of space immediately in front of the saddling stalls and between them and the walking ring sets up for some pretty close encounters between fractious horses when more than one bolts from his handlers during the saddling process. I like our facility's architecture, except for the very smokey and noisey "arcade" atmosphere on the ground floor - the smoke from which just funnels right up the two escalators (I consider them "chimneys") at either end to render the second level pretty irritating by the 6th or 7th race - even if you're sitting in the non-smoking section! In fact the smoke aspects of this facility are the single biggest argumetn for joining the Jockey Club - it has better smoke removal equipment or something.
Retama, in San Antonio, is nearly as good, tends to be a bit drier and harder, especially in one of our typical August heatwaves. Very nice looking facility and pleasant on the inside - although I haven't been there long enough/frequently enough to really comment on the interior layout. Saddling paddock is kind broken into two distinct but connected areas: a shed row for saddling and then a walking ring for getting your riders up/letting the public see the horses. The walls of the saddling "stalls" look like wood but are concrete - don't you know that smarts when the over-anxious horse kicks out at his stall wall - OUCH! I think the backside of Retama and it's on track housing are the best - certainly the best I've seen in Texas and most other spots. Spaced fairly wide apart, airy and light filled but with suffient roof overhang to keep you dry when you decide to walk them in the barn, etc. Housing is two story in complexes which are either four or eight plexes, with paved athletic courts in between, built in bar-b-q pits and outside gathering spots for picnic dinners, etc. - great masses of soccor fields just accross the highway. Only downside is I hear it's not being well maintained with the lower purses...lower handle etc. Also a portion of that backside complex is within the 100 or 200 Year Flood Plain and in fact one year on the closing weekend they had a very heavy rainfall and the almost imperceptable small rocky creek that bounds the property became a raging torrent, many feet wide, that rose up into several of the lower barns, drowning something like 10-20 horses. It happened so fast that even with everyone trying to help get horses out - heroicly I might add at the risk of their own lives - they couldn't get to all of them in time. Problem is in that limestone hill country the same thing can happen as a result of rain a few miles away but in the same basin and you'd never suspect anything till this wall of fastmoving water suddenly swells up out of the creek! I do think the Retama management now has an emergency plan for just such a reoccurrence but emergency plans are one of the those things where if you don't practice it and re-assess it frequently it's of no real use when you need it.
Lone Star has had it's surface re-worked at least twice since first opening and once wholly redone I believe. I hear that it's 'better' but I also still hear trainers/owners that complain bitterly about it's general hardness and more importantly that it often plays inconsistently underfoot so that a horse may suddenly find his footing several inches deeper than the last footfall or the appearance of the surface would lead him to believe. Definitely more injuries to the front end occur there - although it's certainly much better than it was initially. Having said that it's also got the better purses in Texas and generally the faster times....so guess which is regarded as the 'better' of the three tracks? It is an attractive and very imposing facility to the visitor/fan and for the most part nicely laid out....the saddling paddock and walking ring as greatly enlarged and re-done for the Breeders Cup this past fall is quite pleasant. Mores so for the late races of the day when that brutal sun finally sinks low enough to not bake the area. I would say that they need more shaded places where you can sit outside to reveiw your Program, or even just sit. Texas, and North Texas especially, is just too darned hot most of the time (or freezing cold!) to stand around in an exposed area for long stretches of time. Need more betting windows that open onto the walking ring area IMO. Barns are too close together AND exhibit one of my biggest pet peeves: they're enclosed! Talk about a great way to spread every respiratory ailment, virus or fungus in the world like wildfire throughout a barn!! They do have generously sized stalls and wide aisles but I still prefer an open barn. The on-track vet clinic is pretty good from what I hear and have experienced. Located on a high area within the flood plain between the cities of Dallas and Grand Prairie of the Trinity River it is located in an area that is naturally humid, hot and much of the time with absolutely no air flow - a steam oven in other words so get out your LASIX if you're going to race here (or in Houston, which is also very humid - even in the winter many times) as you're stressing these horses in heavy, high humidty regimes where the outside air is hotter than the overheated air they exhale so expect more of the sorts of "injuries" that occur from overheating and overexertion in the heat - especially in the warm months/days. Didn't really see any on-track housing at Lone Star....where is it hidden????
Retama, in San Antonio, is nearly as good, tends to be a bit drier and harder, especially in one of our typical August heatwaves. Very nice looking facility and pleasant on the inside - although I haven't been there long enough/frequently enough to really comment on the interior layout. Saddling paddock is kind broken into two distinct but connected areas: a shed row for saddling and then a walking ring for getting your riders up/letting the public see the horses. The walls of the saddling "stalls" look like wood but are concrete - don't you know that smarts when the over-anxious horse kicks out at his stall wall - OUCH! I think the backside of Retama and it's on track housing are the best - certainly the best I've seen in Texas and most other spots. Spaced fairly wide apart, airy and light filled but with suffient roof overhang to keep you dry when you decide to walk them in the barn, etc. Housing is two story in complexes which are either four or eight plexes, with paved athletic courts in between, built in bar-b-q pits and outside gathering spots for picnic dinners, etc. - great masses of soccor fields just accross the highway. Only downside is I hear it's not being well maintained with the lower purses...lower handle etc. Also a portion of that backside complex is within the 100 or 200 Year Flood Plain and in fact one year on the closing weekend they had a very heavy rainfall and the almost imperceptable small rocky creek that bounds the property became a raging torrent, many feet wide, that rose up into several of the lower barns, drowning something like 10-20 horses. It happened so fast that even with everyone trying to help get horses out - heroicly I might add at the risk of their own lives - they couldn't get to all of them in time. Problem is in that limestone hill country the same thing can happen as a result of rain a few miles away but in the same basin and you'd never suspect anything till this wall of fastmoving water suddenly swells up out of the creek! I do think the Retama management now has an emergency plan for just such a reoccurrence but emergency plans are one of the those things where if you don't practice it and re-assess it frequently it's of no real use when you need it.
Lone Star has had it's surface re-worked at least twice since first opening and once wholly redone I believe. I hear that it's 'better' but I also still hear trainers/owners that complain bitterly about it's general hardness and more importantly that it often plays inconsistently underfoot so that a horse may suddenly find his footing several inches deeper than the last footfall or the appearance of the surface would lead him to believe. Definitely more injuries to the front end occur there - although it's certainly much better than it was initially. Having said that it's also got the better purses in Texas and generally the faster times....so guess which is regarded as the 'better' of the three tracks? It is an attractive and very imposing facility to the visitor/fan and for the most part nicely laid out....the saddling paddock and walking ring as greatly enlarged and re-done for the Breeders Cup this past fall is quite pleasant. Mores so for the late races of the day when that brutal sun finally sinks low enough to not bake the area. I would say that they need more shaded places where you can sit outside to reveiw your Program, or even just sit. Texas, and North Texas especially, is just too darned hot most of the time (or freezing cold!) to stand around in an exposed area for long stretches of time. Need more betting windows that open onto the walking ring area IMO. Barns are too close together AND exhibit one of my biggest pet peeves: they're enclosed! Talk about a great way to spread every respiratory ailment, virus or fungus in the world like wildfire throughout a barn!! They do have generously sized stalls and wide aisles but I still prefer an open barn. The on-track vet clinic is pretty good from what I hear and have experienced. Located on a high area within the flood plain between the cities of Dallas and Grand Prairie of the Trinity River it is located in an area that is naturally humid, hot and much of the time with absolutely no air flow - a steam oven in other words so get out your LASIX if you're going to race here (or in Houston, which is also very humid - even in the winter many times) as you're stressing these horses in heavy, high humidty regimes where the outside air is hotter than the overheated air they exhale so expect more of the sorts of "injuries" that occur from overheating and overexertion in the heat - especially in the warm months/days. Didn't really see any on-track housing at Lone Star....where is it hidden????
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Tucumcari
- Chef de Race: Brilliant
- Posts: 3754
- Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:51 am
- Location: Here and there
Joe wrote:tucumcari, were you using that new Keenland training track ? The new composite ? Just wondering.
Our track at Philly is a mess when it get's wet. Our drains are clogged and we are down to about 3" of cushion. just watch a simulcast in the wet and see the jocks ride 5 wide on the lead for good footing..
I hear Delaware is no bargain either for training.
No I didn't get to train over it. My boss was anti anything "new." When I mentioned that to some else's assistant he stated that his employer was the same way... Narrow minded... afraid of something new... need I say more
BUT I did watch the horses train over it. As I said in the above post it handled the water very well. But I didn't like the way horses with bad hind ends were unable to get a hold of it... But it is soft and kind. Looks like it has big chunks of old carpet in it. So as you can imagine it is soft. For injuries like tendons, ankles, knees, etc. I would think it to be very kind.
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soccerpmp
- Newborn
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- Location: Somewhere I don't want to be!!
ruidoso
I've heard a few trainers @ Ruidoso say that the tunnel going under the track which leads to the paddock is a breakdown haven... A lot of them believe there are underground holes that cause the ground to give way plus its in the clubhouse turn which makes it even worse.
If I only knew then... What I know now....
Thanks tumcumcari, very good info. I think we are in kind of an upheaval time where a lot of our tracks are wearing out. Magna is changing tracks left and right. Hopefully we're going in a better direction.
I was very surprised at what I've heard about Laurel. When Magna re-did Gulfstream most of us expected a different kind of track than the old speed-favoring one. Now it is 1 1/8 miles and more speed-favoring than it ever was. However, I've been told by trainers here that Laurel is deep and a closers track, more than it ever was.
Go figure.
I was very surprised at what I've heard about Laurel. When Magna re-did Gulfstream most of us expected a different kind of track than the old speed-favoring one. Now it is 1 1/8 miles and more speed-favoring than it ever was. However, I've been told by trainers here that Laurel is deep and a closers track, more than it ever was.
Go figure.
The far turn at Fairmount has regular break-downs.
[hijack]There was a gelding there I knew a little (groomed for same trainer) and when I found out his hame (Nuts Over You) I asked if he was out of Raised by Nuts. Sure enough, he was! And better bred than most of what you see at FP...I had handled his dam at Calumet, when she belonged to the broodmare manger.
Well, Nuts had a mystery lameness that kept him from competing well. No one would spend the money to find it, they just kept trying different stuff - the trainer I worked for did one of those "cold blisters" (right? where they hose it every other day to re-inflame the stuff?) and the skin all sloughed off. It was disgusting.
After he healed, they put him back on the track and the mystery lameness showed up - his left scapula split right up the middle.
And - it was a Saturday evening, and the renderers couldn't make it until Monday.
Sorry if I went too far afield - I just recalled that incident and needed to vent.
[/hijack]
[hijack]There was a gelding there I knew a little (groomed for same trainer) and when I found out his hame (Nuts Over You) I asked if he was out of Raised by Nuts. Sure enough, he was! And better bred than most of what you see at FP...I had handled his dam at Calumet, when she belonged to the broodmare manger.
Well, Nuts had a mystery lameness that kept him from competing well. No one would spend the money to find it, they just kept trying different stuff - the trainer I worked for did one of those "cold blisters" (right? where they hose it every other day to re-inflame the stuff?) and the skin all sloughed off. It was disgusting.
After he healed, they put him back on the track and the mystery lameness showed up - his left scapula split right up the middle.
And - it was a Saturday evening, and the renderers couldn't make it until Monday.
Sorry if I went too far afield - I just recalled that incident and needed to vent.
[/hijack]
And thou fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse. - The Qur'an
hello jellac...hi wilf
Jellac...recently wilf responded to a post of mine and wrote "Jeez...that's a lot of language to get through.... I had to step out for a cold one halfway through that...post." etc etc etc
Jellac I appreciated the specifics in your post and feel like I a got a valuable guided tour (of sorts) around Sam Houston Race Park and Retama (in San Antonio). Thanks.
But I must say...while I was reading your lengthy (but very informative) post...wilf's comment came to mind...and I had to smile. So in honor of wilf...I took a half-time break and stepped-out "for a cold one."
Best to you and wilf...
...and again...I appreciated the guided tour...and wilf's (and everyone's) insights and opinions on "best and worst racetracks"...which included commentary re: breakdowns...racetrack maintenance etc. Very informative.
Respectfully
Jellac...recently wilf responded to a post of mine and wrote "Jeez...that's a lot of language to get through.... I had to step out for a cold one halfway through that...post." etc etc etc
Jellac I appreciated the specifics in your post and feel like I a got a valuable guided tour (of sorts) around Sam Houston Race Park and Retama (in San Antonio). Thanks.
But I must say...while I was reading your lengthy (but very informative) post...wilf's comment came to mind...and I had to smile. So in honor of wilf...I took a half-time break and stepped-out "for a cold one."
Best to you and wilf...
...and again...I appreciated the guided tour...and wilf's (and everyone's) insights and opinions on "best and worst racetracks"...which included commentary re: breakdowns...racetrack maintenance etc. Very informative.
Respectfully
wilf wrote:Sounds like the trainer was REALLY nuts.It makes me mad as it seems like NOBODY took a stand and said"enough".
Such is life at a cheap track. I was cheap labor and needed the money.
Not an excuse, I know, but that was my mindset at the time.
I have a bagful of horror stories...don't let me get started, it's depressing.
And thou fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse. - The Qur'an
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sulphurfire
- Allowance Winner
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"Such is life at a cheap track. I was cheap labor and needed the money."
I understand what you are saying WarHorse. When you need the job and the money to survive, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue, harden your heart and keep on going.
I understand what you are saying WarHorse. When you need the job and the money to survive, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue, harden your heart and keep on going.
"The rewards, whether for winning or for losing, offer almost irresistible temptations to race a two-year-old more times than are good for them." John Hay Whitney at the annual testimonial dinner in October 1963 for the Thoroughbred Club of America
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
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jellac wrote: Sam Houston Race Park . . . drains fairly quickly after one of our not infrequent "frog stranglers" of a rainstorm.
Must be the only place in Houston that drains quickly after a rainstorm!!!
(I was living at Richmond and Dairy Ashford during Allison, so I know!)
Sam Houston is a nice facility, though.