Article on new points system

[ides of ice]

http://saratogian.com/articles/2013/04/ ... 062821.txt

[TJ]

Hi Ides,
The article did hit on the major flaw in the Derby point system regarding the 3YO fillies. I mentioned this in a post (Derby Points System Needs Updating Following Fl. Oaks) that I thought would create some conversation, but it did not. I believe something must be done about this and I'm glad to see it in print. TJ

[Mac]

Really agree with you, T. J. I'm not sure what they should do, but they need to leave a way that a freakishly good filly can qualify. I mean, think about it, a filly NEVER runs again in the Derby? Surely that is not the intention. Trainers are reluctant to enter a filly unless they are REALLY good, but when one comes along, most fans and definitely most owners would like that option.

[TJ]

Really agree with you, T. J. I'm not sure what they should do, but they need to leave a way that a freakishly good filly can qualify. I mean, think about it, a filly NEVER runs again in the Derby? Surely that is not the intention. Trainers are reluctant to enter a filly unless they are REALLY good, but when one comes along, most fans and definitely most owners would like that option.

Hi Mac,
It's really an easy fix....CD didn't think it out before they set this up. They just have to allow the qualifying Oaks point races to be used interchangably with the Derby qualifying point races. This will allow a good filly (like Dreaming of Julia), whose connections would like to run in the Derby, the opportunity to run in the Derby as long as she has enough points to take the berth away from a colt with less points. TJ

[bdw0617]

i wouldn't change anything whatsoever

think about it. if the end game is to get the best 3YO's in the gate, every 3YO filly that has won the derby has ran in a real dreby prep. Genuine Risk came in 3rd in the wood memorial when she won the derby.

if you want to run in the derby run in the derby prep. it's that simple. Rachel would have won the arkansas derby by daylight or the louisiana derby she would have taken freisen fire behind the woodshed in that race.

[TJ]

i wouldn't change anything whatsoever

think about it. if the end game is to get the best 3YO's in the gate, every 3YO filly that has won the derby has ran in a real dreby prep. Genuine Risk came in 3rd in the wood memorial when she won the derby.

if you want to run in the derby run in the derby prep. it's that simple. Rachel would have won the arkansas derby by daylight or the louisiana derby she would have taken freisen fire behind the woodshed in that race.

Hi bdw,
Your example disproves your theory. Under the new system Genuine Risk wouldn't have been allowed to run in the Derby....that was the only race she ran in and would have only had 20 points in her Derby resume.....not being enough for a spot in the Derby. Then there are some 3YO fillies who are special from the beginning and it didn't matter what sex they ran against.....like Winning Colors and Regret. Yet under the current system Winning Colors would have been the only filly to win the Derby as both Genuine Risk and Regret would have been ineligible on points. TJ

[bdw0617]

that's a very astute point TJ.

With that said,
I believe the system that we have now is just about perfect; if a filly is not good enough to come in at least 2nd in a major prep she doesn't have any business in the gates on the first saturday in may IMHO

[TJ]

that's a very astute point TJ.

With that said,
I believe the system that we have now is just about perfect; if a filly is not good enough to come in at least 2nd in a major prep she doesn't have any business in the gates on the first saturday in may IMHO

Hi bdw,
I agree, I honestly like the system....but it does eliminate a 3YO filly's chance to get in the Derby. I see no reason why Dreaming of Julia shouldn't be allowed to run in the Derby if their connections so desired. Why should a 3YO filly have to be a known freak who can handle both sexes before she would be allowed to run for the roses. The 3YO colts get their opportunity to develop at their own pace...but a late developing filly has to know ahead of time if she could run in one of these colt Derby preps. Horseman know they would get ridiculed for pushing their 3YO filly too soon running against colts just to make the Derby. Why not allow their Oaks point system to be used toward Derby eligibility and allow that 3YO filly the opportunity to go along at her own pace against her own kind till they realize...hey, I got a 3YO filly that may be able to run in the Derby? The old graded earnings system allowed a filly to be equal to a colt when preparing for the Derby under the graded earnings system. Under this new point system a filly's accomplishments against her own kind are ignored. Where it wasn't ignored under the graded earnings system which allowed both sexes an equal opprtunity to run for the roses. That's unfair IMHO. TJ

[ides of ice]

I wouldn't be surprised if they do modify the system to include filly races next year.

[bdw0617]

if anything i'd make the fantasy / ashland / santa anita oaks / gulfstream oaks 50 points races for the winner only.

that's it. and that's stretching it.

the point to me is not just making the DERBY better but making the PREPS better.

by allowing the fillies to stay with fillies, you are encouraging the problem for which the derby points system was invented to solve; stop letting the best horses avoid each other until the first Saturday in may

if you really think your filly is that good, run her against someone

[TJ]

if anything i'd make the fantasy / ashland / santa anita oaks / gulfstream oaks 50 points races for the winner only.

that's it. and that's stretching it.

the point to me is not just making the DERBY better but making the PREPS better.

by allowing the fillies to stay with fillies, you are encouraging the problem for which the derby points system was invented to solve; stop letting the best horses avoid each other until the first Saturday in may

if you really think your filly is that good, run her against someone

Hi bdw,
That's not the way good horsemen/women look at it, they map out a plan for their filly against her own kind until she shows something that merits a closer look.....they are not machines and you can't run a filly against the colts without knowing they are ready for it. Not even Winning Colors was considering the Derby till after she won four of 5 starts against fillies. Her bust out win in the SA Oaks gave Lukas the confidence to run her back against the colts and win the SA Derby....then on to winning the Kentucky Derby. A good horseman has to have proof his filly can handle boys and that she is robust enough to take them on and not breakdown in the process.
No one thought (including their connections) that Dreaming of Julia would ever run such a bust out race as she did in the GP Oaks.....unfortunately the timing of that race made it impossible for her to try the boys to gain the points needed. Same scenario, under the old system....she would be eligible to run in the Derby. Under this system she has to sit it out. This is a serious fault under the new point system and I am sure you will hear this being discussed in the near future to eliminate this bias against 3YO filly's securing a spot in the Derby. TJ

[Mac]

I do think it will get taken up at some point as an issue. If a freak-good filly peaks late, as do many two-turn horses, they have limited opportunity to get into the Derby under the current system and that isn't right. I guess Dreaming of Julia is a good example. She pulls out this monster race and she can't run in the Derby under the new system. Whatever they do, whether its more along the idea of BDW's suggested races as providing qualifying points, or in line with allowing filly stakes races act as dual qualifiers, they do need to address this and I think it will get spot-lighted. I hope so, because I really think fans enjoy it when the odd filly comes along who is very qualified to take a shot at the roses.

[TJ]

I do think it will get taken up at some point as an issue. If a freak-good filly peaks late, as do many two-turn horses, they have limited opportunity to get into the Derby under the current system and that isn't right. I guess Dreaming of Julia is a good example. She pulls out this monster race and she can't run in the Derby under the new system. Whatever they do, whether its more along the idea of BDW's suggested races as providing qualifying points, or in line with allowing filly stakes races act as dual qualifiers, they do need to address this and I think it will get spot-lighted. I hope so, because I really think fans enjoy it when the odd filly comes along who is very qualified to take a shot at the roses.

Hi Mac,
Here I was thinking the CD Derby point system simply overlooked the 3YO filly scenario (Dreaming of Julia) that came to pass under the new points system. Then I read this article....it's obvious to me, those who devised this system thought of such a scenario and decided to allow points earned by filly's in Derby qualifying races, to be permitted for use toward the Oaks, but Oaks qualifying points earned by filly's, cannot be used toward the Derby. So I guess they are happy with the fact that filly's are effectively being restricted from running in the Derby. I wonder if it's a throwback to Eight Belles in an attempt to restrict filly's from running for the Roses? Whatever it is, it just seems very biased. TJ
http://www.drf.com/news/keeneland-pure- ... -lexington

[bdw0617]

lol I'm starting to think they considered all this, saw how much of a pandoras box that all of this was and said screw it lol.

[Mac]

What a SORE subject. Not the qualifying system although that is our current topic. The subject of Pure Fun, or rather Pure Nightmare. Every time I see her name, I cringe and it seems like someone always sends me links or innocently mentions her name. Not that you had any idea TJ. Basically what happened is she was for sale at Keeneland as a weanling in 2010. It says in an article she rna'd for $5k but I thought I'd gone higher, I don't remember, plus it seemed like someone else out-bid me, and it turns out she rna's. I go back to the barn, take pictures and videos of her, go back and forth, and they agree to sell her to me for I forget what, I think $12k. I tell them I'll get back to them within a week after I confirm with a partner. The partner passes, saying she's out of an old mare, which he doesn't like. I decide to buy her anyway and call them back, tell them I'll take the filly. They've changed their mind and tell me they've decided to hang onto her and want to get more for her as a yearling. So at the 2011 yearling sale, I try to buy her again, I go to $18k, and she ends up going for $22k I think. I follow her into her first races, a couple of claimers, lose track of her, and then I'm watching the gr 1 Hollywood Starlet one afternoon on one of the horseracing channels and realize her name sounds familiar. Then the lightbulb goes off...

I've bid on horses before that ended up being graded stakes winners, but it doesn't count when I go to say $15k and they sell for $100k. But in Pure Fun's case, I would have owned her for $12k if I had taken her on the spot instead of waiting a week trying to get a partner!!!!!!!Anyway, true story.

Back to our topic, as to the Derby qualifying system, I definitely agree its might be pretty hard for fillies to qualify if their owners don't realize soon enough when their filly is a total freak. That's sad and I hope it gets addressed.