Back at the knee?

[roving boy]

Not to break the thread, but Wilf mentioned that the sales results should tell whether a horse is back at the knee or not. Unfortunately that is not the case, especially when one speaks of 2 year old sales.

Experienced yearling purchasers are often stunned by the prices paid for 2 year olds that do not meet their "yearling conformation criteria". The money is paid primarily on the basis of the breeze results, not conformation. Some explain the greater leniency in conformation standards by saying "they were sound enough to get here, if they pass vet they are sound enough for me now."

When considering a yearling, its conformation, walk and pedigree are the only indicators available. 2 year old sales offer the potential buyer the opportunity to see the horse train and breeze, and those indicators are often given priority over conformation, or are at least weighed equally with conformation.

As someone once said and many of us have repeated:

"There aren't many perfect horses in the winners circle".

Realize also that sales results are auction ring results, not final results. To my knowledge there is no results listing that shows those 2 year olds that do not pass a post sale vet exam and are either discounted or returned.

[FOS]

hi barbara

You wrote "You are careful to use words like "possibly," yet you infer you know what those photographers were thinking when they executed those photos."

Yes Barbara...I try to choose the right words to express my thoughts...and words like "possibly" can be important. And Barbara...respectfully...All Things Considered is it unreasonable to suggest that you may be the one doing the inferring?

Moving on now...please consider this...you wrote "In more than 20 years of taking conformation photos, I have not once intentionally stood a horse to hide a flaw(s)."

With that in mind...Barbara...is what you are saying that you were NOT aware of Thunderello's flaws...but had you been you would have taken a photograph that would have exposed them?

Regardless...reality is that Thunderello's defects (not the least of which is his clubby left-front foot) which are so clearly evident in his 2004 Blood-Horse stallion register photo (where his feet are not hidden)...are clearly NOT evident in your photograph which appears in the 2005 TB-Times stallion directly.

As you are aware...in your photograph...Thunderello is standing in the grass...thus making it impossible to see the flaw(s) which were so clearly evident in his 2004 BH-stallion register conformation photo. Respectfully...does this not (possibly) conflict with your statement that "Hiding a flaw wouldn't dawn on me when taking a conformation photo. It seems of utmost importance ...to honestly - and correctly - record a horse, both for history's sake and for the sake of anyone who might be financially influenced by the photograph(s)."

Considering the disparities in the photographs...is it unreasonable Barbara...for anyone to conclude (upon comparison of the two conformation photographs...one exposing significant flaws and the other [yours] not exposing those same flaws) that the decision to stand Thunderello in the grass was a "wise (and/or shrewd) move."

Regardless...the result was that the MAJOR flaws associated with Thunderello's front-left foot 'disappeared' in your photo.

This is not an indictment Barbara ...simply an honest observation that (upon comparison of the two photos) it would arguably be difficult (if not impossible) for most (if not all) reasonably knowledgeable horseman/woman to miss (or ignore) the significant defects which appear in the Goins photo...but do not appear in yours.

I have a lot of respect for you as a result of your work Barbara...and as I mentioned previously...it seems that many of your photos (particularly of the 'old guys and gals') touch the heart...

...but clearly...as you might agree...the differences between photographer Matt Goins 2004 BH-stallion register photograph of Thunderello when compared to your 2005 TB-Times stallion directory photo raises some honest questions...as significant flaws appears in the one that do not appear in the other.

Regardless of our different 'takes' on some things...I extend a very warm welcome to you Barbara...am pleased and honored to have the opportunity to communicate (and debate) with you...and certainly look forward to your valuable insights etc.

Best to you...always.

Respectfully

[roving boy]

FOS

I had hoped that my interruption of the thread would end the argument, but alas you cannot gracefully retreat from any sitruation. I do not blame Barbara if she avoids this site forever thanks to your terrier-like approach to any dissenting opinion.

Without respect.

Roving Boy

[WarHorse]

The colt does appear to be standing on a slight incline - notice where the gravel meets the grass in the background: it slopes towards the barn. If this is a drainage issue, then the entire gravel area would be equally sloped, and the colt would therefore be standing on an incline.

No excuse for his front legs being underneath him, though.

He might appear to be "floating" because once the photo was digitized, it was slightly sharpened. Notice the halter and mane appear to be vaguely out of focus, but the bottom-line of his neck is sharp. This may be a result of using "unsharp mask" in most quality photo editing software.

Otherwise, the quality and angle of light are the same.

[halo]

FOS, give it up. Its entirely possible, in fact probable, that Barbara wasnt aware of these all important FLAWS that you keep harping on. Her job is to take the best picture of the horse. The flaws that she sees are a big manure stain (wash the damn horse, sheesh, didnt you know the photographer was coming?), a post that comes out of the middle of the horses back (move the horse), The muck pile in the back (move the horse), the stallion showing obvious goo goo eyes at the mare in the next field (move the mare), the chain over the nose (use Photoshop). Thats what a photographer does. Get over it, FOS, youre dead wrong on this issue. I aint asking you, Im tellin you.

[wilf]

Hey Barbara/Stay Out Front, I had a lovely grey mare a few years ago called Shes Our Fastest....perhaps you and I have met in a previous life at Sorted Oaks Farm? As for all the other crossfire within this thread I am hoping that this Holy Bull 2yr old is still in the Ocala area so that I may go take a look and end this puzzle. As one who is NOT a natural at inspecting young horses I do feel from the picture that the horse is a little weak below the knee and slightly tied in which may give the wrong impression from a distance therefore I am stimulated enough to go and seek him out.Also Barbara thanks for the comment on Classic Jewel you are welcome to come and photograph him anytime.....no charge. He could be a poster-boy for your next book"Iron Horses....blue collar champs of Racing" Oh well it was worth a try. Regards.

[jellac]

StayOutFront - Welcome - I too hope you'll stay with the forum a bit longer and get to know us - hardheads and all (and I have to admit I can be a hardhead too at times). Love your photos and agree that your Old Friends captured these elderly campaigners in their latter years but with dignity intact - remarkable portraits of some grand champions from bygone years.

I also am impressed by your 'handle' - assuming that it honors the SW mare of that name, dead in 2001 at age 35?

[henthorn]

This colt might be just fine, even if back at the knee. He is so lean, and likely floats across the track to make him have such a nice work. He wouldn't be as hard on his knees with that light body as many with better leg conformation who are heavier horses. Photos aren't everything.

[wilf]

Lets hope he is a floater as it looks like he has done plenty of work to get to this stage and the mileage he has gone through will not have had such a negative effect if his action can save him.

[Inthe951]

Wow what a heated conversation. I personally enjoyed reading the critique on different photography styles. I too am a photographer and it is definetly an art form. Really the goal is to produce THE BEST PHOTO possible.

I am sure even the novice of photographers go through their stack of photos and place in their frame at home the one that they look the best in. Where they look a bit skinnier, tanner and all hairs in place. Really this is what we are talking about.

Why would a stallion owner or TB owner post or display a picture that wasnt the BEST ONE that would obviously not accentuate any faults. If that were our human nature then frame the picture that shows your belly hanging out over your pants.

I truely cant believe that anyone would even question integrity or anything over the obvious of: Present what you can in the BEST WAY possible! I mean really.

Back to the horse at hand.....a picture is worth a thousand words really is true. I believe when selling or promoting a horse you better put a "wow" photo in. The fact that this horse appears a bit back would lead me to believe it probably is. Next step would obviously be to see it...if not possible get another photo. I would lean toward the belief that that was the best they could get that day. Which is unfortunate. Maybe we should all inquire for another photo just to see how this guy really stands. LOL

Any way, I did enjoy the horse photo breakdown for those of you that make it through this post!

Take care-Meg

[judi]

Hi Barbara,
Hope you will continue to post here. Your photos are incredible. It would be fun to have you stay on board.
As you can tell, you have fans here.
Judi

[BJ]

Jeez FOS thats a lot of language to get through.....you should write a book. I had to step out for a cold one halfway through that last post. Instead of pontificating on the vagaries and intricacies of shooting film < I mean how hard can it be?> I really figured that the easiest way to find out if the horse was back at the knee was to look up the sales results . I can hardly imagine these sharp buyers shelling out big bucks for anything less than a 10 out of 10. It seems that in the past decade that conformation has superceded pedigree in the breezing sales. I liked Crees original post for its simplicity and that it linked up to the various parts of the Westpoint site.Respectfully.

ROTFLMAO

[BJ]

The colt "FLASHY BULL" sold for $205,000 at the February Ocala Calder 2yo sale to Buzz Chace after breezing 1/8 mile in :10.2. He is now being syndicated by West Point for $380,000--$38,000 for a 10% 'unit.'

If this colt is back in the knee more than one person has WAY overpaid for the right to own him when he breaks down.

Doubt Buzz Chace would pay that kind of money for a back at the knee colt. Geesh...he was part of a 4-part conformation series for the Bloodhorse.

[wilf]

Thank You B J , in fact I am having a cold one now after the Tornadoes that hit Ocala yesterday and took out the power for 8 hours, dont think any horses were injured.

[BJ]

Thank You B J , in fact I am having a cold one now after the Tornadoes that hit Ocala yesterday and took out the power for 8 hours, dont think any horses were injured.

Wow...didn't know that. With the Terri Schiavo and Pope news coverage, I've turned all news off for the last week. Gosh, hope everyone (horse & human) is o.k.

Come to think of it...I have a couple of friends down that way I better check on.