Back to Pedigree Query
It is currently Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:28 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:29 pm 
Offline
Darley line
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:54 am
Posts: 5936
Location: FL, NY
There was no doubt in my mind that the flailing AP got in winning the Derby looked to be abusive, if he did that in Europe he would be looking at a suspension. But truth be told, this isn't Europe and I'm sick and tired of hearing these comparisons. There are no comparisons between American and Euro racing, but they insist there is. These whips leave no marks, this isn't the old days when jocks left raw welts on horses and would hit them purposely to hurt them so they would run faster. The whips today make more noise then sting a horse!! CD Chief steward Barbara Borden (who was an associate steward at Ellis Park and Senior horse identifier at Keeneland, CD and Turfway Park, amazing credentials?) is to investigate the 32 times AP was hit by the whip to urge him to victory. Luckily there is no maximum rule at CD as to the number of hits permitted through the lane and that in itself should be enough to call off the dogs, but it seems we have a bleeding heart steward that needs to understand these whips do no harm and that older rider's ride in sync with the stick. I could see if the horse came home with welts and bloody, open wounds from being struck (that's abuse, ask Bobby Ussery who hit horses so hard he drew blood)....but the pop, pop, pop of the whip that wouldn't leave a welt on my back needs to be publicized, not this BS trying to indicate animal abuse in the Kentucky Derby. TJ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 4:18 am 
Offline
Grade I Winner
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:54 am
Posts: 1595
I am surprised this took so long to be aired on here, its been big on the TV and racing papers this side of the pond.

I didn't want to add anything more about the derby as I was probably sounding like a sore losers over my bet on frosted but here its 5 times in the last furlong 1/8 mile your allowed use the whip and the said AP got hit 22 times in the last 1/8 that's about two hits a second.

_________________
Edited by Moderator


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 7:26 am 
Offline
Darley line
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:54 am
Posts: 5936
Location: FL, NY
dublino wrote:
I am surprised this took so long to be aired on here, its been big on the TV and racing papers this side of the pond.

I didn't want to add anything more about the derby as I was probably sounding like a sore losers over my bet on frosted but here its 5 times in the last furlong 1/8 mile your allowed use the whip and the said AP got hit 22 times in the last 1/8 that's about two hits a second.

Hi Dub,
Yes, I knew it was just a matter of time before it would start being scrutinized here in the States. There is no basis for it since there are no official rules regarding it at CD, leaving it to the discretion of the Stewards (never a good place to be). It's not like the stewards didn't see it while the race was running....their job is to watch these races and enter an objection before the race is declared official. It's almost a joke hearing about it as an afterthought, like yea we're right on top of this 4 days later. It probably has something to do with the Euro clamor you mentioned in your post. Here's an informative article written by Tanya Mannes a Union Tribune staff writer, when the old style whips were first banned at Del Mar Racetrack. TJ
http://www.jockeysguild.com/news/2009/0 ... track.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:33 am 
Offline
Grade III Winner
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:36 pm
Posts: 1149
Location: New England & Florida
Is the whip used in Europe, and limited to five whacks in the final furlong, exactly the same kind of "popping" whip that's required for use in the US?

_________________
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:45 pm 
Offline
Darley line
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:54 am
Posts: 5936
Location: FL, NY
Patuxet wrote:
Is the whip used in Europe, and limited to five whacks in the final furlong, exactly the same kind of "popping" whip that's required for use in the US?

Hi Patuxet,
I couldn't find the exact answer, if these new whips are used exclusively in Europe, but I did find two interesting articles. One article refers to the fact Euro riders are tired of having to count the amount of times they hit a horse and the other article shows one of the new whips being used on the reporter's palm being hit as hard as a rider would hit a horse...the reporter said it proves they are painless and the rule is bogus. TJ

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/a ... roke-count

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2011/o ... didnt-hurt


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:29 am 
Offline
Grade III Winner
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:36 pm
Posts: 1149
Location: New England & Florida
Thanks, Tom. Good information.

_________________
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 9:38 pm 
Offline
Weanling

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:52 pm
Posts: 33
If anyone wants to bother to look it up, there are rules in Kentucky governing whip use. I don't have the exact quote, but I'm sure some of you do know how to look up rules in Kentucky. It was quoted elsewhere that the horse could be hit so many times, and then the horse had to be given an opportunity to respond. Again, I don't know the exact wording of the rule, but the source I read actually quoted chapter and verse...I just didn't make a note of it. It might help in this discussion to review how the rule reads.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:15 am 
Offline
Darley line
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:54 am
Posts: 5936
Location: FL, NY
Deltalady01 wrote:
If anyone wants to bother to look it up, there are rules in Kentucky governing whip use. I don't have the exact quote, but I'm sure some of you do know how to look up rules in Kentucky. It was quoted elsewhere that the horse could be hit so many times, and then the horse had to be given an opportunity to respond. Again, I don't know the exact wording of the rule, but the source I read actually quoted chapter and verse...I just didn't make a note of it. It might help in this discussion to review how the rule reads.

Hi Delta,
I agree with what you said concerning the whip rules, but they are not uniform throughout the industry. Most of the rules concerning the whip, at CD in particular, are reviewed and decided at the discretion of the stewards. There are no maximum amount of times a horse can be struck during the running of the race at CD. Almost all jurisdictions have the "opportunity to respond" in their whip rules and at CD as well. At CD, as long as they are struck in sync with their stride and the rider feels they are responding to it, countless times are permissible at CD. In all jurisdictions after the race, horses are examined by the state vet to make note if they see signs of welts or broken skin caused by the whip. This seldom happens with the new whip, other then by accident while being struck with other then the popper at the end of the whip.
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-b ... -in-derby/
On the other hand, if you are riding in California, their rules are different (changed at the end of 2014). Three consecutive hits is the number of times a horse can be struck before then allowing the horse a chance to respond (though any good rider knows immediately if the horse is responding). This new rule is logical, because it's bordering on whipping a dead horse. If a horse doesn't respond to 3 strikes of the whip, they are out of gas or hurting. Some horses won't respond to the stick and a good rider will refrain from using the stick and urge him on with his voice and hands. At CD Espinoza's horse responded to his stick and was found to be in accordance to their rules.
Getting back to California, Espinoza was hit with a $300 fine for the use of his whip on Stellar Wind. The state vet found a break in her skin after the race....a break in her skin, which her own trainer, John Sadler never saw after the race?
Makes one wonder if the timing of the CA fine May 8th might have been trying to push CD into changing their decision that there was nothing which caught their attention concerning Espinoza's use of the whip? TJ
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... ellar-wind


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group