Mabee racing stable--what's happened?

[Michael]

Curious about the descent of the once powerful Mabee racing stable. Not too long ago it developed major stakes winners by the handful. But in the last few years, very few good horses have either been bred or campaigned by the Mabees.

Any insight into the problem here?

[reenci]

Curious about the descent of the once powerful Mabee racing stable. Not too long ago it developed major stakes winners by the handful. But in the last few years, very few good horses have either been bred or campaigned by the Mabees.

Any insight into the problem here?

i thought john Mabee died last year or so , that sort of tells you whats going on i think. .....downsizing, getting out ? maybe the heart s just not in it for the mrs. but im only speculating.

[LSB]

Yes, John Mabee died and a lot of the stock has been sold off. I'm not sure how much racing they're planning to continue to do.

[Michael]

While Mr. Mabee did pass away last year, the stable's descent began long before his death. The only really good horse it raced in 2004 was homebred Yearly Report. Mrs. Mabee has culled a lot of the failed broodmares, as well as the marginal stallions, but there are still a lot of well bred runners left in her racing stable.

[Sysonby]

Michael, how much of it do you think can be traced to the less than stellar performance of Souvenir Copy and Event of the Year as sires? Golden Eagle has supported them massively the last several years and they have not delivered.

[Michael]

That must be a large part of the problem, in that resources were 'wasted' on proving these two stallions. Frankly, I thought they were both slam dunks as sires, and they may yet rebound.

I'm wondering if the Mabee young horses have been raised differently in the last 5-6 years or so. Diseases? Management? Trainers?

I'm interested in understanding what leads to the rise and fall of horse dynasties. Calumet had Bull Lea and *Blenheim II (in partnership) and prospered; their breedings to outside stallions were not generally successful; Rex Ellsworth had *Khaled and several other lesser successful stallions but rarely bred to outside horses; his empire fell when no replacement sire was found for *Khaled; big outfits like Mereworth Farm, Spendthrift Farm, Elmendorf, N.B. Hunt, and so many others all seem to have self destructed, while others like Claiborne and Darby Dan carry on.

Any ideas?

[LSB]

For what it's worth, I don't think Souvenir Copy has been a failure at stud. His stats through the end of last year were really pretty good. I was under the impression that he had been moved from Kentucky to California because that was where the Mabees home base was, not because he was perceived not to have succeeded here.

[Sysonby]

His "success" has been a little deceptive. From what I understand--admittedly thirdhand--is that Golden Eagle bred huge numbers of mares to him (the number I've heard has been as high as 75) and bought them all back to California to foal to get the benefit of the statebred program and then bred them back to Event of the Year. So Souvenir Copy's numbers have been heavily influenced by his offspring running against Calbreds instead of open caliber horses.

The move was perceived here by some as a concession that if all you are going to produce is mediocre Calbreds, the horse might as well be standing in California in the first place. Shame they bumped Avenue of Flags for him though.

[Michael]

I agree about Avenue. I heard they sold him for peanuts, too. Not to mention forfeiting his stallion awards. I also understand that Mrs. Mabee decided not to breed any outside mares to her stallions in 2004. Event of the Year covered 17 mares as a result.

I can't help but remember the J.O. TOBIN story when talking about Souvenir Copy. I remember being so irritated with George Pope when he sent J.O. Tobin to Spendthrift Farm to stand. I thought that horse would have been the next Fleet Nasrullah in California. Unfortunately, the horse failed big time in KY and briefly ended up in California where his stats didn't improve one iota.

Still, concerning the Mabee stable, I can't help but think that its decline is the result of more factors than the disappointing performances of Souvenir Copy and Event of the Year at stud. Maybe (no pun) the land is not as fertile as it once was? Feeding program? Personnel?

[Sysonby]

I can't help but remember the J.O. TOBIN story when talking about Souvenir Copy. I remember being so irritated with George Pope when he sent J.O. Tobin to Spendthrift Farm to stand. I thought that horse would have been the next Fleet Nasrullah in California. Unfortunately, the horse failed big time in KY and briefly ended up in California where his stats didn't improve one iota.

I know someone who worked at Spendthrift in the 70s. He told me that they were so high on J O Tobin after seeing his first crop that they raised the stud fee because all of the foals looked like stone runners. The problem is that none of them could actually run. He calls stallions like that "sucker sires" because they throw good looking horses that can't perform. They sell well until everyone figures out that they can't run.

Obviously you need a whole career to really evaluate a stallion that way and even the worst sire can have one or two runners. But based on what I've seen at some of the sales, I think there are a few sucker sires here in California--good looking horses that sire good looking horses whose best performance will be in huntseat saddle some day.

[louis finochio]

J.O Tobin was a bad sire, those who believe the superior producing mares would make him a dominant sire, were disapointed when J.O Tobin failed.

By only breeding to proven sires and successful breeding patterns, your going to breed some superior runners.

The Calif. breeding program is on a down hill slide, as the breeders are waiting for the next super stallion to revitalize the breeding industry.

Calif. needs a leader to bring in some quality mares and stallions, as the Calif. breeders awards are golden.

[Michael]

Yes, J.O. Tobin was a huge disappointment for everyone. When he was retired to Spendthrift he joined the other newly retired stallion there, Seattle Slew. I must admit that, as a Californian, I was terribly biased in favor of J.O. Tobin as a potential sire. When I stopped by to look at them, my heart sank, because side by side there was no comparison in quality. J.O. Tobin was a slightly made, almost effeminate horse who did not look as if he would fashion out into the kind of robust horse his sire, Never Bend, was. Seattle Slew, for all my pre-judgement, was clearly the better individual of the two, even with his front leg deviations. He already wreaked of a stallion. I'm sure he outweighed J.O. Tobin by several hundred pounds even though they had been retired almost simultaneously. After their first two crops hit the tracks it was just as clear which of the two stallions was headed for success.

I guess my lesson was to leave pre-judgements at home, look at what is in front of you, and make cerebral decisions rather than emotional ones.