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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:55 am 
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Whats the point o the breeders cup? Dirt is the surface that most of the greatest American horses act best on so why have a world championship in the USA that provides European trainers with huge prize money for NOT taking on America's best? Surely Royal Ascot is the place to find a turf champion not the Breeders Cup. No European horses in the classic this year which severely detracts from the event for me. I think the European horses are just too slow for the dirt.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:14 am 
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Huh?

Is this a serious question?

FYI. The times on the grass were faster. Of course, the surfaces were entirely different, so hard to make a comparison - which sort of plays into my "huh" question.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:49 pm 
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So the Dubai World Cup can't be called that because of IT'S surface??

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:28 am 
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truehoncho wrote:
Whats the point o the breeders cup? Dirt is the surface that most of the greatest American horses act best on so why have a world championship in the USA that provides European trainers with huge prize money for NOT taking on America's best? Surely Royal Ascot is the place to find a turf champion not the Breeders Cup. No European horses in the classic this year which severely detracts from the event for me. I think the European horses are just too slow for the dirt.

Hi Honcho,
Sorry you feel that way about the BC event, but personally I thought it was one of the best they ever put together. Trainers and owners won't spin their horses wheels and ship across the pond to go home without paying their way, but it isn't as dire as you think.
First of all the point of the Breeders Cup is to showcase first and foremost North America's best race horses. It immediately became international as soon as those across the pond noticed the size of the purses:>) Royal Ascot surely is a place to find top turf horses, but if you break it down a good number of Euro's came here to run in the BC turf races and have done very, very well. Just look at the winners of the BC Mile and the BC Turf. As a matter of fact every record held in those two BC events are held by trainers, owners and jockeys from across the pond. They shipped their best here to compete over the years...Goldikova who certainly was one of the best turf runners ever. This season was no exception as horses crossed the pond and did very well handling the top North American based turf runners like Flintshire and Lady Eli. You see it isn't just about dirt racing, but it is about having the best gather together over turf and dirt.
That being said, we know Euro racing is basically turf...so most would be at a disadvantage taking on the best in the BC Classic on dirt, yet one did manage to pull it off on the dirt. In 1993, the French turf horse, Arcangues won the BC Classic in his first try on the dirt at odds of 133-1. He later won the GR II John Henry Handicap on the turf, but never won again on the dirt. The 2nd to win the Classic, Raven's Pass, won the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes at ROYAL ASCOT over Henrythenavigator, then came to American less than a month after that win, to run over the all weather track in the BC Classic in 2008 and became the 2nd from across the pond to win the Classic. So it's not like it hasn't been done and I'm sure it will be done again....a point of fact in the 2008 Classic, Curlin was in Raven's wake finishing 4th at 4/5, while Henrythenavigator was 2nd creating a 1-2 finish for the Euro's. TJ


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:43 pm 
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TJ wrote:
truehoncho wrote:
Whats the point o the breeders cup? Dirt is the surface that most of the greatest American horses act best on so why have a world championship in the USA that provides European trainers with huge prize money for NOT taking on America's best? Surely Royal Ascot is the place to find a turf champion not the Breeders Cup. No European horses in the classic this year which severely detracts from the event for me. I think the European horses are just too slow for the dirt.

Hi Honcho,
Sorry you feel that way about the BC event, but personally I thought it was one of the best they ever put together. Trainers and owners won't spin their horses wheels and ship across the pond to go home without paying their way, but it isn't as dire as you think.
First of all the point of the Breeders Cup is to showcase first and foremost North America's best race horses. It immediately became international as soon as those across the pond noticed the size of the purses:>) Royal Ascot surely is a place to find top turf horses, but if you break it down a good number of Euro's came here to run in the BC turf races and have done very, very well. Just look at the winners of the BC Mile and the BC Turf. As a matter of fact every record held in those two BC events are held by trainers, owners and jockeys from across the pond. They shipped their best here to compete over the years...Goldikova who certainly was one of the best turf runners ever. This season was no exception as horses crossed the pond and did very well handling the top North American based turf runners like Flintshire and Lady Eli. You see it isn't just about dirt racing, but it is about having the best gather together over turf and dirt.
That being said, we know Euro racing is basically turf...so most would be at a disadvantage taking on the best in the BC Classic on dirt, yet one did manage to pull it off on the dirt. In 1993, the French turf horse, Arcangues won the BC Classic in his first try on the dirt at odds of 133-1. He later won the GR II John Henry Handicap on the turf, but never won again on the dirt. The 2nd to win the Classic, Raven's Pass, won the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes at ROYAL ASCOT over Henrythenavigator, then came to American less than a month after that win, to run over the all weather track in the BC Classic in 2008 and became the 2nd from across the pond to win the Classic. So it's not like it hasn't been done and I'm sure it will be done again....a point of fact in the 2008 Classic, Curlin was in Raven's wake finishing 4th at 4/5, while Henrythenavigator was 2nd creating a 1-2 finish for the Euro's. TJ


Only fair to note that in 2008, the Classic (and all the other "dirt" races) were run on Santa Anita's synthetic main track, which has since been replaced with dirt. Synthetics have generally been considered more favorable to turf runners.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:45 am 
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Mahubah wrote:
TJ wrote:
truehoncho wrote:
Whats the point o the breeders cup? Dirt is the surface that most of the greatest American horses act best on so why have a world championship in the USA that provides European trainers with huge prize money for NOT taking on America's best? Surely Royal Ascot is the place to find a turf champion not the Breeders Cup. No European horses in the classic this year which severely detracts from the event for me. I think the European horses are just too slow for the dirt.

Hi Honcho,
Sorry you feel that way about the BC event, but personally I thought it was one of the best they ever put together. Trainers and owners won't spin their horses wheels and ship across the pond to go home without paying their way, but it isn't as dire as you think.
First of all the point of the Breeders Cup is to showcase first and foremost North America's best race horses. It immediately became international as soon as those across the pond noticed the size of the purses:>) Royal Ascot surely is a place to find top turf horses, but if you break it down a good number of Euro's came here to run in the BC turf races and have done very, very well. Just look at the winners of the BC Mile and the BC Turf. As a matter of fact every record held in those two BC events are held by trainers, owners and jockeys from across the pond. They shipped their best here to compete over the years...Goldikova who certainly was one of the best turf runners ever. This season was no exception as horses crossed the pond and did very well handling the top North American based turf runners like Flintshire and Lady Eli. You see it isn't just about dirt racing, but it is about having the best gather together over turf and dirt.
That being said, we know Euro racing is basically turf...so most would be at a disadvantage taking on the best in the BC Classic on dirt, yet one did manage to pull it off on the dirt. In 1993, the French turf horse, Arcangues won the BC Classic in his first try on the dirt at odds of 133-1. He later won the GR II John Henry Handicap on the turf, but never won again on the dirt. The 2nd to win the Classic, Raven's Pass, won the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes at ROYAL ASCOT over Henrythenavigator, then came to American less than a month after that win, to run over the all weather track in the BC Classic in 2008 and became the 2nd from across the pond to win the Classic. So it's not like it hasn't been done and I'm sure it will be done again....a point of fact in the 2008 Classic, Curlin was in Raven's wake finishing 4th at 4/5, while Henrythenavigator was 2nd creating a 1-2 finish for the Euro's. TJ


Only fair to note that in 2008, the Classic (and all the other "dirt" races) were run on Santa Anita's synthetic main track, which has since been replaced with dirt. Synthetics have generally been considered more favorable to turf runners.


Hi Mahubah,
You had me thinking my Alzheimer's struck again:>)...I actually said only one foreign horse, Argangues won the Classic over a dirt surface. Check the highlighted and underlined parts of your above post and note I mentioned Raven and Henry finished 1-2 over the "all weather surface". TJ


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:56 pm 
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Very provocative post. I have been a little bit of sucker in betting Euros on the dirt in BC races. My modus openendi in doing this has been based on the idea that good horses are good horses and probably can handle any surface. Also, they have had impressive connections who may be taking a shot but one they have an amount of reason behind the shot. Scored big a couple of times; Arganues being my biggest hit; In that race I think there were 3 or so Euros; I bet them all to win. Arganues had me buying the drinks. The BC is a chaotic event as horses are coming from here and there. Taking shots is the way to profits. And at other times licking your wounds.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:27 am 
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It may come as a giant surprise to the OP but the US has turf racing also. In fact there are even a few TURF ONLY courses. Many US tracks have dirt and turf surfaces. We also have synthetics thrown in the mix which many European horses train on.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:44 pm 
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And many of the great ones can run on both surfaces, if they would just give it a shot. I'm so glad Chrome did even though he didn't win, and I think if Sherman had been training he may have done even better. And there are turf specialists who can't run a lick on dirt, so its great to have a suite of races to give them a shot at the brass ring.

jm

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm 
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Joltman wrote:
And many of the great ones can run on both surfaces, if they would just give it a shot. I'm so glad Chrome did even though he didn't win ...


California Chrome won the Hollywood Derby on the turf at Del Mar.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:30 pm 
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Forgot - thanks for the reminder Pautuxet. So a question - if he came up infertile, any thought of him returning? Maybe on the turf?

jm

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