SHAMARDAL ON DERBY TRAIL ?

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Sysonby
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Postby Sysonby » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:21 am

louis finochio wrote:The 12 crosses of (Phalaris) sire lines that Shamardal has will magnify the problems of his ancestors. If the wobbler syndrome is in his ancestors background then Shamardal will pass it on to some of his offspring.

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Has anyone figured out how many crosses of St Simon there exists in modern horses? Is there a point where it's so far back in the pedigree that it just doesn't matter anymore from a practical standpoint?

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Postby louis finochio » Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:05 am

If I owned Shamardal and was selecting mares for his court, I would outcross his 12 crosses of (Phalaris) with many Relaunch mares (Fair Play) sire line. This (Phalairs) (Fair Play) cross has produced a prolific abundance of superior runners and GR SW.

When breeders make their paper matings, the sire lines on the sire and dam side should blend in so each side of the mating is in balance.

When the sire lines are out of balance as is evidence by Shamardal's pedigree, the soundness in his offspring will be recessive.

We would restore the soundness in his offspring, by crossing Shamardal with the (Fair Play) sire line mares.
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austique
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Postby austique » Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:23 am

I wonder if (when he is retired) Darley will stand him here or in Europe. Seems like Europe would be a better bet as there were rumors he was training poorly on the dirt track prior to the UAE Derby.

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BenB
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shamardal

Postby BenB » Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:54 am

The reason for the wobbler syndrome is caused by pressure onto the
string of nerves gooiing through the back to the feet.
Mostly caused by problems with joints putting pressure on the nerves or
bone that,s to close to the nerves.
Anabaa was also having this (wobbler) as a youngster, he developed into one of france leading stallions.

Ben

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Postby kimberley mine » Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:13 pm

Sysonby wrote:
Has anyone figured out how many crosses of St Simon there exists in modern horses? Is there a point where it's so far back in the pedigree that it just doesn't matter anymore from a practical standpoint?


In all the discussion about Phalaris, there is one surprising fact that tends to be ignored. He has one son with FAR more influence than any other--Pharos--and Pharos is linebred 3x4 to St Simon. The same is true for his brothers Fairway and Fair Trial, who occur more frequently in european and south american pedigrees. Do we then argue that St Simon is part of the problem? Or is Pharos the main source of "trouble," and his lesser-known full brothers Fairway and Fair Trial not the major sources of unsoundness that is Pharos?

The main sources of St Simon in the USA are *Ribot and *Princequillo, with Siphon (BRZ) being an interesting source of St Simon from the Prince Bio line.

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Mahubah
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Postby Mahubah » Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:44 pm

Forgive me, but Fair Trial was a son of Fairway, was he not? Nonetheless, the Pharos/Fairway brother set has to be one of the most remarkable in breeding history.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis

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Postby llbean » Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:17 pm

Pharamond and Sickle were pretty good themselves as well; though they were of course somewhat overshadowed by their half-brother Hyperion.

Probably the greatest set of all time were Stockwell and Rataplan, one the "Emperor of Stallions" and the other one a very important source of stamina (see Hampton). Interestingly, the male line of Rataplan survived a good long time in South America (see Carlos Pelligrini Winner Formento).

Their half-brother was King Tom, a 2xTime Leading English Sire and the damsire of St Simon.

Reaching back even further, the Epsom Derby Winning Full Brothers Whalebone and Whisker were of profound importance in the development of the Modern Thoroughbred, and their full sister Web was a truly excellent broodmare as well.

Note that Stockwell and Rataplan were both 4x4x4 to Whisker, Whalebone, and Web. And King Tom was 5x4 to Web and Whisker.

Also note that the supreme American Broodmare of the Late 19th Century was Maggie B. B. and she was 4x5x4x6 to Whisker, Whalebone, and Web herself thanks to the profoundly important fact that Pocahontas' sire Glencoe was imported into America by James Jackson, where he became a wonderful filly sire for the ages and the Male Line ancestor of Hanover and his son Hamburg through his very important son Vandal.

Interestingly, the suddenly hot young sire Concerto traces back to Vandal's half-sister Levity. Concerto also has Acroterian direct on his damline and "Acro" traces to a full sister of Hindoo named Florida through aline preserved by Alfred G. Vanderbilt (see the cleverly named Petrify, who the Champion 2YO Filly of 1941).

And both Concerto's dam and his son Bellamy Road inbreed to the Clonaslee female line, a line tracing back to Sophia, a full sister in blood to the great American taproot Selima. Selima of course being the female line ancstress of Hanover.

And And Concertos' sire Chief's Crown traces back to none other than the great 19th Century American Taproot Gallopade, the female line ancestress of Hamburg.

Glencoe-Vandal-Virgil-Hindoo-Hanover-Hamburg.. Hmmm...

Also, Flame thrower traces to a full sister of Vandal named Volga.

-llbean

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Postby MillyMix » Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:10 pm

I heard that his tendons had gone and that he wouldn't be coming back. It was from a close source of the owners. Hope its not true.
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Postby ef » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:29 pm

MillyMix wrote:I heard that his tendons had gone and that he wouldn't be coming back. It was from a close source of the owners. Hope its not true.


Are you talking about Shamardal? You heard this from a source close to the Sheikh? If so, I sincerely hope your source is wrong. Shamardal was/is an extremely talented horse, and if Godolphin has ruined him by rushing him into the UAE Derby...well, it just makes me sick.

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Postby louis finochio » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:37 pm

Alex Hassinger the foreman for Godolphin US, and currently at Santa Anita will know the condition of Shamardal. I will ask Alex on Tuesday as to the current condition of Shamardal.

Alex Hassinger's uncle was John Gaines the originator of the BC, he passed away a few months ago. John Gaines was a great man. and left the Industry with many positive Ideas.
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Louis Finochio

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Postby louis finochio » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:39 pm

Alex Hassinger said that Shamardal has been declared out of the Derby, as he was injured in his last start in Dubai. Alex didnt say what type of injury it was.
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Louis Finochio

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Postby WarHorse » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:42 pm

Thanks, Louis.
And thou fly without wings, and conquer without any sword. Oh, horse. - The Qur'an