Giacomo the Derby winner had only 4 crosses of (Phalaris) within his 5 generation pedigree.
This shows why the TB with the fewest crosses will have the best chance at the Derby distance.
After observing Giacomo coming back to the winners circle, I noticed he wouldnt have blown out a match, as he was in super, super form.
Congrats to trainer John Shirreffs, jockey Mike Smith, and Francisco the groom for a magnificent job in preparing Giacomo for his victory run down heart break lane.
Francisco father was a groom for 25 years for trainer Charlie Whitingham.
Great race, and the sport of kings still has a heart beat, thanks to the great finish of the 131st. Derby.
GIACOMO VICTORIOUS
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
-
louis finochio
- Darley line
- Posts: 9181
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:21 am
- Location: Alhambra-Calif.
- Contact:
GIACOMO VICTORIOUS
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
-
fastappy
- Starters Handicap
- Posts: 587
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Northern California
Sire Line Mythology
An astute observation by this author, though Bold Ruler is the grandfather of the 2nd dam.
[quote]Eventually a new sire line will emerge that is free of the blood of todays dominant sires represented by Nearco's grandsons Bold Ruler and Northern Dancer, along with Raise a Native. The newly emerging line will appear to be obscure and there will be a strong prejudice against it. The late Bull Hancock believed that a prospective stallion would be an above average two-year-old, demonstrate ability to stay the American classic distance of 1 1/4 miles, and be sound and masculine in appearance. He would also have the right kind of pedigree. Hancock used the Family Tables of Racehorses by Kazimierz Bobinski to determine if the stallion came from a family that had a history of producing other top stallions.
Holy Bull, currently rated at the top of the three-year-old crop, may be such a horse. He was undefeated at two. He is sound. He is masculine in appearance. He just demonstrated his ability to carry his speed when winning the 1 1/4 mile Travers Stakes. And he is from the family that has produced Bull Dog, Sir Gallahad III, Ormonde, Martagon, Buchan, and St. Germans.
Holy Bull's sire Great Above is closely related to one of the fastest horses of recent times, Dr. Fager. Great Above has proven his ability to inject speed into pedigrees as is shown by his appearance, close up, in the pedigrees of two of the fastest horses of the last five years. Housebuster was produced by a daughter of Great Above, while Holy Bull is his son. More significant is the fact that Holy Bull has not one drop of Nearco blood in his pedigree. All mares heavily dosed with Nearco will improve his "dosage". In the numbers game of breeding, the numbers heavily favor Holy Bull. §
by Floyd Oliver
[/quote]
[quote]Eventually a new sire line will emerge that is free of the blood of todays dominant sires represented by Nearco's grandsons Bold Ruler and Northern Dancer, along with Raise a Native. The newly emerging line will appear to be obscure and there will be a strong prejudice against it. The late Bull Hancock believed that a prospective stallion would be an above average two-year-old, demonstrate ability to stay the American classic distance of 1 1/4 miles, and be sound and masculine in appearance. He would also have the right kind of pedigree. Hancock used the Family Tables of Racehorses by Kazimierz Bobinski to determine if the stallion came from a family that had a history of producing other top stallions.
Holy Bull, currently rated at the top of the three-year-old crop, may be such a horse. He was undefeated at two. He is sound. He is masculine in appearance. He just demonstrated his ability to carry his speed when winning the 1 1/4 mile Travers Stakes. And he is from the family that has produced Bull Dog, Sir Gallahad III, Ormonde, Martagon, Buchan, and St. Germans.
Holy Bull's sire Great Above is closely related to one of the fastest horses of recent times, Dr. Fager. Great Above has proven his ability to inject speed into pedigrees as is shown by his appearance, close up, in the pedigrees of two of the fastest horses of the last five years. Housebuster was produced by a daughter of Great Above, while Holy Bull is his son. More significant is the fact that Holy Bull has not one drop of Nearco blood in his pedigree. All mares heavily dosed with Nearco will improve his "dosage". In the numbers game of breeding, the numbers heavily favor Holy Bull. §
by Floyd Oliver
[/quote]
-
louis finochio
- Darley line
- Posts: 9181
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:21 am
- Location: Alhambra-Calif.
- Contact:
The key to a sire that produces superior runners is consistently demonstrated by their offspring.
Up to now Holy Bull has not consistently produced those superior runners.
Time will tell how his progeny will peform, as some stallions like Prince John, Graustark, and Cozzene's offspring improve with age.
Will Holy Bulls offspring fit this mold? Only time will reveal the answer.
Up to now Holy Bull has not consistently produced those superior runners.
Time will tell how his progeny will peform, as some stallions like Prince John, Graustark, and Cozzene's offspring improve with age.
Will Holy Bulls offspring fit this mold? Only time will reveal the answer.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
fastappy, that quote is almost eerie as a phophecy. If that was your quote...good call.
OK, it was a great race. Exciting. Heart-pounding. Unexpected. And I think all that is great for horse racing. The outcome blew me away and the payoffs for 1st and 2nd and the exotics were astounding (and did ANYONE hit that Superfecta???? WOW!)
But I gotta tell ya, I'm still hurting a bit to have seen Afleet Alex get sooo close, and not quite get there. I watched the replays and I swear he was in the lead at one point on the stretch. My take on it is that if Giacomo and Closing Argument hadn't "hooked" right in the final strides, he just might have done it. He certainly didn't disgrace himself, but it's painful for me--and I know it's got to be excrutiating for his connections--to see this colt, and all that he stands for, just come up a few strides short of making history.
I was very happy for native New Mexican Mike Smith finally getting his Derby win, and I was happy for Giacomo's connections. Still, after the shock wore off. my first thought was that there will be no Triple Crown winner this year. But after this upset, who knows. Maybe Giacomo has a few more surprises up his sleeve.
Laurie
OK, it was a great race. Exciting. Heart-pounding. Unexpected. And I think all that is great for horse racing. The outcome blew me away and the payoffs for 1st and 2nd and the exotics were astounding (and did ANYONE hit that Superfecta???? WOW!)
But I gotta tell ya, I'm still hurting a bit to have seen Afleet Alex get sooo close, and not quite get there. I watched the replays and I swear he was in the lead at one point on the stretch. My take on it is that if Giacomo and Closing Argument hadn't "hooked" right in the final strides, he just might have done it. He certainly didn't disgrace himself, but it's painful for me--and I know it's got to be excrutiating for his connections--to see this colt, and all that he stands for, just come up a few strides short of making history.
I was very happy for native New Mexican Mike Smith finally getting his Derby win, and I was happy for Giacomo's connections. Still, after the shock wore off. my first thought was that there will be no Triple Crown winner this year. But after this upset, who knows. Maybe Giacomo has a few more surprises up his sleeve.
Laurie
So many pedigrees...so little time. (C)
-
fastappy
- Starters Handicap
- Posts: 587
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Northern California
Sire Line Mythology
Zialand - No not mine, the author of the article is Floyd Oliver. I felt it was prophetic as well. Though Holy Bull may not be the progenitor of a new sire line perhaps through his family. Others have spoken about the Phalaris disease and/or the need to bring different lines into the modern Thoroughbred. I like the H2R in his pedigree as well.
I thought it was an interesting article, nonetheless.
[url]http://www.equineinfo.com/SireLineMythology.htm[/url]
There were so many upsets (City Sis, Madcap Escapade, etc.) on that track, I don't know how legit the win was, or was Keeneland the fluke. We'll see in the Preakness.
I thought it was an interesting article, nonetheless.
[url]http://www.equineinfo.com/SireLineMythology.htm[/url]
There were so many upsets (City Sis, Madcap Escapade, etc.) on that track, I don't know how legit the win was, or was Keeneland the fluke. We'll see in the Preakness.
-
Final Voyage
- Yearling
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 1:16 pm
Giacomo's Breeder of record J. S. MOSS
I was just searching this site last night for info on the progeny of "The Queen of Ak-Sar-Ben BERSID" and noted from her daughter Sweet Savannah several babies are bred by J. S. MOSS of Kentucky.
On a sentimental note i would have bet on Giacomo had i known he has the same breeder. J.S. Moss meant nothing to me as a name. Bersid was worshipped in Omaha by many but died in a Japanese slaughterhouse. I thought if i could save a baby of hers it would ease my conscience a bit. Does anyone here know how to contact this breeder to ask if the mare could be adopted/bought after her breeding career is over???
Moreover would they even read a letter sent by anobody like me?? 
If J.S. Moss made the breeding decisions for Giacomo all the more kudos to him.
I'm inclined to commend the thought about "hybrid vigor" !!! Best wishes Giacomo continues his success.
from Iowa
All Roads Lead Home When You Know Where Your Going... And Sometimes When You Don't!
OK Louis, then why did smarty jones have so many crosses of Phalarsis and win the derby, which is it, lots of crosses or fewest croses? See thing is, nobody bet him who studdies pedigree, not one DRF person had it, nobody had it unless you like the number 10, it's why the derby is a joke. Its why there should be maybe 12-15 horses max, why there shouldn't be any "rabbits" in the race. I'll be shocked if Giacomo wins a big race again. There was no logical reason to bet him
I've been reading all these posts, and yes many of you know tons more than me about breeding. But i love all the people in "hindsight" that now talk about the "great pedigree" of Giacomo. Where was everyone before the derby? If Pedigree strictly mattered horses like Bandini & Noble Causeway would have won. There is no logical reason anyone can tell me that those 2 horses would come in. I bet a shot in "sort it out" as he had a significant 2 year old foundation, a nice dosage, many crosses of Phalarsis similar to smarty jones & about 7 tap root mares in his female tail line, if a shot should have won it, should have been him. The race is a joke and no indication of anything. I have friends using thorograph sheets and you have andy beyer who bombed. Hey, these are young horses in a 20 horse field who are getting slammed around. Some like the course some don't, and the Rabbit ruined the race. The derby is becoming a joke. If you want to use pedigree, wait for the breeders cup, where i had antonius pius last year.
-
louis finochio
- Darley line
- Posts: 9181
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:21 am
- Location: Alhambra-Calif.
- Contact:
-
kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
louis finochio wrote:The key to a sire that produces superior runners is consistently demonstrated by their offspring.
Up to now Holy Bull has not consistently produced those superior runners.
Time will tell how his progeny will peform, as some stallions like Prince John, Graustark, and Cozzene's offspring improve with age.
Will Holy Bulls offspring fit this mold? Only time will reveal the answer.
Macho Uno--champion juvenile
Confessional--Frizette (G1, 2yo filly)
...but then...
Estimraar (G3)--won his first stakes race at 6
Pohave (G2)--won his first stakes race at 5 (I think)
Crash Course (G3)--won his first stakes race at 5
Turnofthecentury (G2)--won his first stakes as an older 3yo
Thunder Blitz (G3)--won his first stakes as an older 3yo
So they might be needing a bit of time. Also it strikes me from watching Giacomo's races that that might not be physically needing time, e.g. a Pleasant Colony, but mentally needing time to focus in.
[quote="louis finochio"]If the breeder of Afleet Alex bred more stamina into his mating that produced Afleet Alex he would have won the Derby.
When to look at past Derby winners you will find this ingredient that separates the wheat from the chaff.[/quote]
Louis, if there was any more stamina in Afleet Alex's pedigree, they'd be competing in 100 mile competitve trail rides instead of the Derby.
When to look at past Derby winners you will find this ingredient that separates the wheat from the chaff.[/quote]
Louis, if there was any more stamina in Afleet Alex's pedigree, they'd be competing in 100 mile competitve trail rides instead of the Derby.
