KAL and JIM--How did your sale go?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, Jessi P, madelyn
Learned a lesson... again. Lost money... again. Just didn't have enough "page" for this sale, especially for book 4, and especially with a bunch of other More Than Ready's in same book with better "pages". Also, having that many horses behind us in sale hurt considerably. Couple buyers who were "on" him got cold feet and decided to wait.
Had the individual though and the farm who did the sales prep did a magnificient job. Would have probably been better off in Fasig-Tipton, but if same results there I would have been kicking myself for not trying the "big show". Cache 22.
Buyer got a steal... and we can only hope he helps "page" fill. He should do quite well with him, and he stays sound. Fortunately, he should be a fairly sound sort... so we will see.
Got his 1/2 brother by Tactical Cat on the farm, with a Jump Start in the "oven". Also own mare's 1/2 sister, who has a Pure Prize on ground, with a Sunday Break in "oven". Both mares are really nice, just victims (along with dam) of prior owners program of breeding, racing, and training (she did it all). It may take a while, but both mares are young, and it only takes 1 good one to "make" the whole family.
Had the individual though and the farm who did the sales prep did a magnificient job. Would have probably been better off in Fasig-Tipton, but if same results there I would have been kicking myself for not trying the "big show". Cache 22.
Buyer got a steal... and we can only hope he helps "page" fill. He should do quite well with him, and he stays sound. Fortunately, he should be a fairly sound sort... so we will see.
Got his 1/2 brother by Tactical Cat on the farm, with a Jump Start in the "oven". Also own mare's 1/2 sister, who has a Pure Prize on ground, with a Sunday Break in "oven". Both mares are really nice, just victims (along with dam) of prior owners program of breeding, racing, and training (she did it all). It may take a while, but both mares are young, and it only takes 1 good one to "make" the whole family.
KAL,
Sorry to hear that. At least you've got the right attitude--learning from the experience--instead of poking your head into the microwave! I totally relate, you think you've got the product the market wants, the sale is a good one, then boom--reality hits. All we can do is try to understand the market and what 'they' are looking for--today! Who knows where the buyer's heads will be in three years.
I've attended hundreds of auctions in the last 40 years and never cease to be amazed at how buyer behavior deviates from year to year. As an economist, you're already an expert on supply and demand, so I'm sure you have wrestled with the problem of wanting to breed to the hot ticket while avoiding the traffic jam at sale time. As we've discussed before, this is one real good reason to breed to horses with limited books, i.e. Claiborne stallions.
BTW, did you take a peak at Candy Ride? Any opinions?
Sorry to hear that. At least you've got the right attitude--learning from the experience--instead of poking your head into the microwave! I totally relate, you think you've got the product the market wants, the sale is a good one, then boom--reality hits. All we can do is try to understand the market and what 'they' are looking for--today! Who knows where the buyer's heads will be in three years.
I've attended hundreds of auctions in the last 40 years and never cease to be amazed at how buyer behavior deviates from year to year. As an economist, you're already an expert on supply and demand, so I'm sure you have wrestled with the problem of wanting to breed to the hot ticket while avoiding the traffic jam at sale time. As we've discussed before, this is one real good reason to breed to horses with limited books, i.e. Claiborne stallions.
BTW, did you take a peak at Candy Ride? Any opinions?
Michael,
You hit my thoughts on the market directly. We simply got caught in a bad spot. As long as we can live to play again, we'll be okay.
As a matter of fact, I did see Candy Ride. I also saw most the other stallions at Hill n'Dale.
Medaglia d' Oro is a wonderful beast. However, I still cannot justify his fee, especially when looking at the questionable popularity of El Prado's sons in the sales ring. Also, for less than a third of his fee, you can get a horse who beat the tar out of him in their only head to head encounter.
Saarland has a huge frame, but leaves one questioning whether Shug feeds his horses. He is in that "Unbridled" body style... when he gains weight and after a year at stud he will be simply awesome. I still don't think he fits my plans however. Just not "my" type.
I loved Candy Ride. He isn't very big... maybe, and I stress maybe, he can get to 16 hands, however he is beautifully balanced and looks wonderfully athletic. He also is hard to fault in general. I would love to use him, and if breeding to race, I probably would, however I am not sure how the market will respond to him. I don't think he will get those big robust foals the market likes, which can overcome the lack of "fashion" in a stallion. He is one which may be a better choice as his foals hit the track. Stud fee will be low, foals may be athletes and put you in the right spot at right time.
Basically, if given a choice on which I think would get an athlete, I would have to go with the little guy, Candy Ride. If given a choice for the sale ring, I might would have to go with M d'O, but not at the fee... I'd look elsewhere. So, I guess I will look elsewhere for my 2005 plans. (But, having said that... I find the Ride to still be tempting... I did really, really like him.)
You hit my thoughts on the market directly. We simply got caught in a bad spot. As long as we can live to play again, we'll be okay.
As a matter of fact, I did see Candy Ride. I also saw most the other stallions at Hill n'Dale.
Medaglia d' Oro is a wonderful beast. However, I still cannot justify his fee, especially when looking at the questionable popularity of El Prado's sons in the sales ring. Also, for less than a third of his fee, you can get a horse who beat the tar out of him in their only head to head encounter.
Saarland has a huge frame, but leaves one questioning whether Shug feeds his horses. He is in that "Unbridled" body style... when he gains weight and after a year at stud he will be simply awesome. I still don't think he fits my plans however. Just not "my" type.
I loved Candy Ride. He isn't very big... maybe, and I stress maybe, he can get to 16 hands, however he is beautifully balanced and looks wonderfully athletic. He also is hard to fault in general. I would love to use him, and if breeding to race, I probably would, however I am not sure how the market will respond to him. I don't think he will get those big robust foals the market likes, which can overcome the lack of "fashion" in a stallion. He is one which may be a better choice as his foals hit the track. Stud fee will be low, foals may be athletes and put you in the right spot at right time.
Basically, if given a choice on which I think would get an athlete, I would have to go with the little guy, Candy Ride. If given a choice for the sale ring, I might would have to go with M d'O, but not at the fee... I'd look elsewhere. So, I guess I will look elsewhere for my 2005 plans. (But, having said that... I find the Ride to still be tempting... I did really, really like him.)
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louis finochio
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Candy Ride
Ron McNally's foreman Dan told me the owner of Candy Ride is going to screen all of the mare's for quality before they approve who will be accepted to breed to Candy Ride. Send your best mare quality wise to his court and I hope it is accepted. Good Luck Yours in Sport Louis Finochio
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
KAL,
If you've left Keeneland with your sense of humor intact after a bad sale you know you'll be back with a huge grin on your face when you do strike that home run. Still, it's great that microwaves can't be crawled into!
Thanks for the eyesight. What did you think of Candy Ride's feet? That was the big knock I heard on him. How correct is he? Six starts is still just six starts--makes you wonder. Temperament?
His sire RIDE THE RAILS stood in California this year and only bred 26 mares. CR's absence this last spring really hurt his bookings.
Glad you made it home OK
If you've left Keeneland with your sense of humor intact after a bad sale you know you'll be back with a huge grin on your face when you do strike that home run. Still, it's great that microwaves can't be crawled into!
Thanks for the eyesight. What did you think of Candy Ride's feet? That was the big knock I heard on him. How correct is he? Six starts is still just six starts--makes you wonder. Temperament?
His sire RIDE THE RAILS stood in California this year and only bred 26 mares. CR's absence this last spring really hurt his bookings.
Glad you made it home OK
Well... honestly, Tuesday I didn't have much of a sense of humor. In fact, I was pretty much ready to assume the fetal position, thumb in mouth and all. However, we have a couple more bullets for this year and I have a couple pretty decent weanlings.
Fortunately, while this sale failure was probably our nicest yearling, he never was considered a "A" list because he wasn't out of one of our best mares... those didn't fire last year, but did this year. So, my weanling crop is by far stronger this year than last. I was hoping he would do well enough to allow me to carry this entire crop through to yearlings, but, perhaps, it is best if I part with one or two.
Wife and horsemen friends are in your camp... eventually a big score WILL happen. Unfortunately, our bank account isn't so philisophical.
Candy Rides feet looked fine. However, he was in very good flesh and didn't look as though he had "really" been in training for a while. So, it is possible we were seeing the results of some very good farrier work and very good post-racing growth. I'm not sure how any horse can help but have feet problems with the current track conditions, especially some of those in CA.
I actually was pleasantly surprised by his conformation. I really couldn't find much to fault him. Of course, in all honestly, unless it is something pretty glaring, something pretty significant, I am willing to look past it if the "big" picture is well balanced and athletic. In his case, it is easy to see why he was unbeaten and pretty much unchallenged at several distances. He simply looks like a complete equine athlete. I liked him... but, I still have concerns as to whether the market will or not. Also, have questions as to what he will pass along...
I also was very pleased with his temperment. He showed nothing but a calm, yet confident demeanor. He was quite patient and had a really nice quality about his eye. Quite clear, quite sure. Of course, I don't know how his stall manners are, and I do know he plays with his feed tub, as he was flipping and banging it around while we were looking at other stallions. I have a feeling he is a pretty intelligent horse with more than a little character.
I also have to put in a word for the facilities at Hill n' Dale. The stallion barn area is downright gorgeous. I would rank it in the top 5 or so in Kentucky, not quite Gainesway or Gainesborough, but very similar to Shadwell.
It will be interesting to see how Candy Ride is accepted. For that matter, I guess it will also be interesting to see what happens with Ride The Rails. Southern Halo, while having moderate success, including a couple "big" horses, certainly didn't get much respect, and Hussonet didn't get a full book of mares despite his success and publicity. Guess I have a South American bias... I like all the aforementioned stallions.
Fortunately, while this sale failure was probably our nicest yearling, he never was considered a "A" list because he wasn't out of one of our best mares... those didn't fire last year, but did this year. So, my weanling crop is by far stronger this year than last. I was hoping he would do well enough to allow me to carry this entire crop through to yearlings, but, perhaps, it is best if I part with one or two.
Wife and horsemen friends are in your camp... eventually a big score WILL happen. Unfortunately, our bank account isn't so philisophical.
Candy Rides feet looked fine. However, he was in very good flesh and didn't look as though he had "really" been in training for a while. So, it is possible we were seeing the results of some very good farrier work and very good post-racing growth. I'm not sure how any horse can help but have feet problems with the current track conditions, especially some of those in CA.
I actually was pleasantly surprised by his conformation. I really couldn't find much to fault him. Of course, in all honestly, unless it is something pretty glaring, something pretty significant, I am willing to look past it if the "big" picture is well balanced and athletic. In his case, it is easy to see why he was unbeaten and pretty much unchallenged at several distances. He simply looks like a complete equine athlete. I liked him... but, I still have concerns as to whether the market will or not. Also, have questions as to what he will pass along...
I also was very pleased with his temperment. He showed nothing but a calm, yet confident demeanor. He was quite patient and had a really nice quality about his eye. Quite clear, quite sure. Of course, I don't know how his stall manners are, and I do know he plays with his feed tub, as he was flipping and banging it around while we were looking at other stallions. I have a feeling he is a pretty intelligent horse with more than a little character.
I also have to put in a word for the facilities at Hill n' Dale. The stallion barn area is downright gorgeous. I would rank it in the top 5 or so in Kentucky, not quite Gainesway or Gainesborough, but very similar to Shadwell.
It will be interesting to see how Candy Ride is accepted. For that matter, I guess it will also be interesting to see what happens with Ride The Rails. Southern Halo, while having moderate success, including a couple "big" horses, certainly didn't get much respect, and Hussonet didn't get a full book of mares despite his success and publicity. Guess I have a South American bias... I like all the aforementioned stallions.
Thanks, KAL, as usual your comments are thorough and clear.
I have the same South American bias you spoke of. So few horses from there really make the same impact here. ROY was supposed to be the second coming, but has proven to be just a horse. Personally, I think the reason why so many "ill-bred" South American horses shine in the U.S. is because of the environment they are raised in. Argentina, for example, is one of the most lush countries I've ever visited, and the native grasses can reach 25% protein. But when the sires of these S.A. bred wonders return to the U.S., their foals don't enjoy the same benefits and suffer at the racetrack as a result. Just my belief.
Candy Stripes (damsire of Candy Ride) is a good example of this phenomenon. When repatriated to Gainesway Farm, he was given far better mares than when he was in S.A., yet failed miserably. I believe he ultimately was sent back to Argentina.
Beyond that, I find that South American female families (unless they are only recently imported from Europe or the U.S.) are poor antecedents for successful sires here.
Hill-n-Dale Farm was originally built in the 1970's by Mr. and Mrs. Franklin Groves. It was the showplace of KY, and was home to the finest collection of proven broodmares in the country. As a construction giant, Groves spared no expense in its development, as you can see. When business failures necessitated, Groves dispersed their horses for a record amount. The Sikuras bought it in the 90's and have only added to its value. It is quite a place.
I have the same South American bias you spoke of. So few horses from there really make the same impact here. ROY was supposed to be the second coming, but has proven to be just a horse. Personally, I think the reason why so many "ill-bred" South American horses shine in the U.S. is because of the environment they are raised in. Argentina, for example, is one of the most lush countries I've ever visited, and the native grasses can reach 25% protein. But when the sires of these S.A. bred wonders return to the U.S., their foals don't enjoy the same benefits and suffer at the racetrack as a result. Just my belief.
Candy Stripes (damsire of Candy Ride) is a good example of this phenomenon. When repatriated to Gainesway Farm, he was given far better mares than when he was in S.A., yet failed miserably. I believe he ultimately was sent back to Argentina.
Beyond that, I find that South American female families (unless they are only recently imported from Europe or the U.S.) are poor antecedents for successful sires here.
Hill-n-Dale Farm was originally built in the 1970's by Mr. and Mrs. Franklin Groves. It was the showplace of KY, and was home to the finest collection of proven broodmares in the country. As a construction giant, Groves spared no expense in its development, as you can see. When business failures necessitated, Groves dispersed their horses for a record amount. The Sikuras bought it in the 90's and have only added to its value. It is quite a place.
Hi Michael and KAL,
Kal, sorry to hear that your sale wasn't strong. I just sold a lovely filly for a fraction of what she is worth here in NY. Weak sales suck. Best of luck going forward.
Michael, I agree that successful South American stallions brought here are at a disadvantage but I believe it's as much mare base as quality of the sire. Sires tend to be more able to be successful where the mare base suits them, such as Cure The Blues here in NY, sons of Nureyev doing well in Europe and even Spend A Buck.
Spend A Buck is doing just fine getting some excellent runners from the South American mare base yet he struggled here in North America.
Regards,
Pete
Kal, sorry to hear that your sale wasn't strong. I just sold a lovely filly for a fraction of what she is worth here in NY. Weak sales suck. Best of luck going forward.
Michael, I agree that successful South American stallions brought here are at a disadvantage but I believe it's as much mare base as quality of the sire. Sires tend to be more able to be successful where the mare base suits them, such as Cure The Blues here in NY, sons of Nureyev doing well in Europe and even Spend A Buck.
Spend A Buck is doing just fine getting some excellent runners from the South American mare base yet he struggled here in North America.
Regards,
Pete
Pete, again you and I are of like mind. I have spent a great deal of time, seemingly wasted, trying to decipher why a stallion does well in one market, then is moved and fades. Of course, the reverse is true also.
Applying this thought process would include the differences in Florida stock, New York stock, Kentucky stock, European stock, and of course, the South American stock. I am not really sure what to make of California and the stock there...
There has to be something that simply causes the environment, genetics, and human handling to mix well in some places and not so well in others.
I somewhat think the old Hooper lines in Florida added bone. I think the situation in New York has more to do less obvious.
The rough and tumble up-bringing in South America produces tougher stock. And, when coupled with the emergence of a "special" individual, provides a very special, very tough minded competitor. Possibly a more natural, more dominant individual than those pampered pasture (and hot-housed) pets we have here. We may have the best genetics in the world, by far, but I think we are seeing some of the same "soft" tendencies in many of our runners that we see in other areas of our society. So, a dominant horse which has survived life, thrived, and proved to be "special" in South America comes to America and takes on the spoiled somewhat "soft" brats we create.
Perhaps, one only look at the economics of breeding and racing in the two continents to make some estimations of the socio-economic differences in the way horses are handled, produced, and the purpose for production of these horses. It probably doesn't take a "horse person" to figure this one.
Applying this thought process would include the differences in Florida stock, New York stock, Kentucky stock, European stock, and of course, the South American stock. I am not really sure what to make of California and the stock there...
There has to be something that simply causes the environment, genetics, and human handling to mix well in some places and not so well in others.
I somewhat think the old Hooper lines in Florida added bone. I think the situation in New York has more to do less obvious.
The rough and tumble up-bringing in South America produces tougher stock. And, when coupled with the emergence of a "special" individual, provides a very special, very tough minded competitor. Possibly a more natural, more dominant individual than those pampered pasture (and hot-housed) pets we have here. We may have the best genetics in the world, by far, but I think we are seeing some of the same "soft" tendencies in many of our runners that we see in other areas of our society. So, a dominant horse which has survived life, thrived, and proved to be "special" in South America comes to America and takes on the spoiled somewhat "soft" brats we create.
Perhaps, one only look at the economics of breeding and racing in the two continents to make some estimations of the socio-economic differences in the way horses are handled, produced, and the purpose for production of these horses. It probably doesn't take a "horse person" to figure this one.
KAL, I saw your colt at Keeneland and thought he looked like a nice, atheletic type. I'm sorry he didn't sell better for you. Our colt was probably too far forward in the sale too. With Coronado's Quest for a sire, we'd have been better off in Book Three than we were in Book One. Live and learn and hopefully do it better next year.
We picked up a filly on the first Saturday o/o Colonial Review, a full sister to Dance Colony. I'm not sure whether or not we'll race her, but I think she'll make one heck of a broodmare.
Meanwhile, our Forestry filly is having a great time at Churchill. I'm told we're hopefully not too far away from a first start.
We picked up a filly on the first Saturday o/o Colonial Review, a full sister to Dance Colony. I'm not sure whether or not we'll race her, but I think she'll make one heck of a broodmare.
Meanwhile, our Forestry filly is having a great time at Churchill. I'm told we're hopefully not too far away from a first start.
Thanks LSB! It was great to see you and husband there. Thanks for the kind words about the colt. The guys at Sparks View did an incredible job getting the colt prepped... and they were, perhaps, as disappointed as I. I tend to agree with your thoughts on your sale... although I didn't get to see it, your initial concern about the book may have been well warranted.
As for ours, as I said, I know hope he proves to be an incredible bargain for his new connections. In fact, because of him, and even more because of his weanling 1/2 brother by Tactical Cat, I don't think it would be a good move to part with this mare at this time. When we bought her, I had planned to give her and our plan 5 years... we are only finishing year 2 now. Cannot complain, she has done everything perfectly... all pregnancies on 1 cover, is a 11 month mare, and can be re-bred on foal heat if so desired, and is a very good mother and a very easy keeper with no bad habits (although she is pretty tough with the other mares in her pasture... and her boys have a decidedly tough streak, which means the colts probably won't be colts for long.)
I looked at the pedigree of your purchase and think you are dead correct. If you don't mind, please email me and let me know how you managed to get such a bargain.
Also, if you wish, I can give you the name of a couple local guys who can get her started for less than an arm and leg... and keep her there for you to enjoy. They will also be able to tell you pretty quickly whether she warrants an attempt or not.
I am quite excited that you may get a starter soon... is Keeneland a possibility? Or, are we looking at Churchill's fall meet? Will she go to New Orleans for the winter, or be "let down"? I am planning a trip over later in the month, as I have another in the Fasig-Tipton yearling sale and yet another (the colt you liked so well) in the Keeneland November sale (hip #2346). I am a little perturbed... somehow the fact the colt is B.C. nominated and KTDF nominated were not printed. For many, many reasons, the KTDF thing really, really annoys me... I probably won't nominate anything else this year... let the people who may benefit do it.
Anyway, it would be really cool if my trip over co-incided with your fillies first start!
As for ours, as I said, I know hope he proves to be an incredible bargain for his new connections. In fact, because of him, and even more because of his weanling 1/2 brother by Tactical Cat, I don't think it would be a good move to part with this mare at this time. When we bought her, I had planned to give her and our plan 5 years... we are only finishing year 2 now. Cannot complain, she has done everything perfectly... all pregnancies on 1 cover, is a 11 month mare, and can be re-bred on foal heat if so desired, and is a very good mother and a very easy keeper with no bad habits (although she is pretty tough with the other mares in her pasture... and her boys have a decidedly tough streak, which means the colts probably won't be colts for long.)
I looked at the pedigree of your purchase and think you are dead correct. If you don't mind, please email me and let me know how you managed to get such a bargain.
Also, if you wish, I can give you the name of a couple local guys who can get her started for less than an arm and leg... and keep her there for you to enjoy. They will also be able to tell you pretty quickly whether she warrants an attempt or not.
I am quite excited that you may get a starter soon... is Keeneland a possibility? Or, are we looking at Churchill's fall meet? Will she go to New Orleans for the winter, or be "let down"? I am planning a trip over later in the month, as I have another in the Fasig-Tipton yearling sale and yet another (the colt you liked so well) in the Keeneland November sale (hip #2346). I am a little perturbed... somehow the fact the colt is B.C. nominated and KTDF nominated were not printed. For many, many reasons, the KTDF thing really, really annoys me... I probably won't nominate anything else this year... let the people who may benefit do it.
Anyway, it would be really cool if my trip over co-incided with your fillies first start!