Livermore Dream or Livermore's Dream?

Keith · Postby **Keith** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:39 pm

Has anyone seen Livermore's Dream for sale on Canter New England. On Pedigree query there is a three year old bay filly listed as Livermore Dream who is by Mt. Livermore and out of a Theatrical mare and the second dam is by Mr. Prospector. Livermore's Dream is listed as a three year old bay filly. If she is by Mt. Livermore she may have potential as an expensive broodmare and more or less a gamble because she has not run well.

Keith

sb · Postby sb » Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:54 pm

*If she is by Mt. Livermore she may have potential as an expensive broodmare and more or less a gamble because she has not run well. *

What makes you say this? Her dam side isn't all that hot to trot.

Lucy · Postby **Lucy** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:36 pm

The correct name is Livermore Dream...must be a typo at CANTER. There is no horse currently named 'Livermore's Dream'.

skeenan · Postby **skeenan** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:54 am

Hmm... yes... just saw her listing this morning & looked up Livermore Dream, who I assumed had to be her...

I thought her pedigree very interesting at first glance, too... Mt. Livermore is enough to make you look twice...

sb · Postby sb » Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:59 am

*I thought her pedigree very interesting at first glance, too... Mt. Livermore is enough to make you look twice...*

Unfortunately, 'very interesting' doesn't mean anything other than gretting some attention. We still don't know what you mean, and you can't expect that we share your view/opinion. So how about expounding a bit. Stallions alone don't make a pedigree....

Sabine

Karie · Postby **Karie** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:45 am

Sabine.. Why are you so AGAINST this mare??

Mt. Livermore is a great sire! For $1,500 she looks like a good "gamble" for a breed to race breeder..!

diomed · Postby **diomed** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:52 pm

Karie wrote:Sabine.. Why are you so AGAINST this mare??

Mt. Livermore is a great sire! For $1,500 she looks like a good "gamble" for a breed to race breeder..!

I don't get it either..The produce has been somewhat below par, however, the blood is there and that is what gets attention...Mt. Livermore/Theatrical/Mr. Prospector/Caro..
Despite being in the doldrums the family kept being bred to quality stallions..
There could be a 'wake up' time coming soon..

La Troienne is a perfect example of this...Before her 3/4 sister Ardagatis won a graded stake there was nothing coming from her family for 2 generations..Hellene De Troie(nothing at the time of her sale)/Lady of Pedigree(nothing)/Doxa(virtually nothing)...Yet at the same time they were by very repectable, successful sires....Then came Ardagatis and La Troienne...BOOM...
I am not saying that Livermore Dream is the next La Troienne, but I will say that it could happen, especially with those kinds of sires along the dam line...
A very cheap opportunity for a quality broodmare, IMO...

skeenan · Postby **skeenan** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:34 pm

sb wrote: Unfortunately, 'very interesting' doesn't mean anything other than gretting some attention. We still don't know what you mean, and you can't expect that we share your view/opinion. So how about expounding a bit. Stallions alone don't make a pedigree....

Sorry I didn't elaborate... I checked the CANTER listings and looked up her pedigree in all of about 10 minutes, before work. No, a stallion alone doesn't make up a good pedigree, but it isn't often (or if ever I can remember) I've seen a NE CANTER listed mare with a $25,000 sire. So for me, that was the "interesting" factor...

So since you asked...

The other "interesting" parts of her pedigree that I liked is seeing Blushing Groom, sire of Runaway Groom (who is #41 on the 2004 sire list) and Arazi, who are just 2 on a list of 26 Grade 1 winners. Theatrical, her dam's sire, (who is listed at $50,000 on my 2004 computer printout) is #46 on the 2004 sire list and has a list of 15 Grade 1 winners.

I'm not saying I have any personal preference towards either and I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people on the forum who could start pulling out progeny statistics, nicking reports, etc. and really get into a debate on how "good" these sires are, especially combined. All I mean is that in a general sense, I like seeing "notable" grandsires on both the sire and dam's side- I personally don't like seeing pedigrees that may have an outstanding sire, then the dam's side is weak. Just my personal opinion and preference...

I didn't mind her tail-dam side- Avidora only has 2 offspring (according to this site)- Livermore Dream and Avimora- but she has some earnings. Brocaro only had one start (for whatever reason), but has 50 Chef's and a GSV of 72.53 and Mr. Prospector as her sire, so not too bad in my book. Brorita has winnings of $126,710, Caro as her sire and two blue hens in a row (Mellow Marsh and Exclusive). So, as far as the CANTER NE listings I have personally looked at, I thought she had one of the better tail-dam lines. Sure, certainly not stellar, but "stellar" usually comes with a "stellar" price tag...

Of course, there are other recognizable names in her pedigree, even for a beginner like myself- Native/Northern Dancer, Hail to Reason, Nashua, Raise a Native, Crimson Satan, Nasrullah... plus some noteworthy mares as well.

Again, I'm no expert- I'm just tallying up the things I noticed. And at $1,500, I agree with Karie, that she could be worth a shot for the right person. It's supposed to be fun, open discussion, I thought. If I were considering buying her, I certainly would be doing a lot more research. I only meant to reply to Keith, as I thought it funny that I just noticed her this morning. I didn't mean to offend anyone with a vague or ignorant comment or opinion. Just trying to learn, and hope that the more knowledgeable members reply so I can gain some insight.

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:27 pm

Actually the female side didn't look that bad, the dam was half to a minor stakes placed, but the second dam was half to a G3 winner by none other than Theatrical. The third dam was a SW herself and half to no less than FOUR other SW's...granted they are not graded stakes, but Four! Meaning the mare Mellow Marsh threw five stakes horses....If I had space and $1500 I might be looking at this filly.

st. louis kid · Postby **st. louis kid** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:09 pm

It was a good observation skeenan. There are a lot of broodmares worse than this one bred every year to good studs. Certainly worth $1500. You have to like the pedigree, but I was surprised that Mt. Livermore does not have a particularly good record as a broodmare sire at this point after looking it up.

Karie · Postby **Karie** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:48 pm

Madelyn- I agree with you! If i had the extra cash and an extra stall she would be mine too!
-Karie

Linda in TX · Postby **Linda in TX** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:38 pm

skeenan wrote:
sb wrote: Unfortunately, 'very interesting' doesn't mean anything other than gretting some attention. We still don't know what you mean, and you can't expect that we share your view/opinion. So how about expounding a bit. Stallions alone don't make a pedigree....

No, a stallion alone doesn't make up a good pedigree, but it isn't often (or if ever I can remember) I've seen a NE CANTER listed mare with a $25,000 sire.

I think Mt Livermore was standing for $40K when this filly was conceived.

Sometimes all you need to see is the sire - especially if you don't have immediate access to further information. It's usually pretty safe to assume a "cheap" (and I don't mean inexpensive) mare won't be sent to a high dollar stallion - and this filly has a whole string of classy, high dollar stallions as her dams' sires. "By nothing out of nothing that never did or produce anything" type mares with absolutely no class present in the tail-female descent don't get to visit Caro, Theatrical and Mt Livermore. They get to stay home and flirt with the neighbor's unraced, poorly pedigreed stallion over the backyard fence.

This filly doesn't have a lot of close-up, impressive black type but she's out of a young winning dam who comes from a family with plenty of class (Exclusive).

A couple of months ago a Grand Slam filly from a similarly modest immediate family was listed on CANTER for $1500. She was snapped up quickly, and even if she was a totally "blind" buy she was probably well worth her inexpensive price. She had sold as a yearling for $120,000.

skeenan · Postby **skeenan** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:53 pm

I think Mt Livermore was standing for $40K when this filly was conceived.

Wow...
Why did his stud fee drop so drastically...? And would that reflect negatively on her as a broodmare...? (from a commercial standpoint, if you're selling)

OK, so that leads me to a question I wanted to ask concerning broodmare sires... Arctiana has Bold Ruckus as her sire, who is #15 on the broodmare sire list... so how does that stack up against Mt. Livermore? As in, who would you look at first and why?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adding an edit here... don't know how I missed this :roll:

, but her granddam, Arctic Vixen, was Canadian Broodmare of the Year...

I can't put my finger on why, but I keep going back to her pedigree to study it... I seem to dig up more that I like!

I just looked at her dam, and she's half to a few blacktype winners, like Bold Executive and Highland Ruckus...

Linda in TX · Postby **Linda in TX** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:09 pm

skeenan wrote:
I think Mt Livermore was standing for $40K when this filly was conceived.
Why did his stud fee drop so drastically...? And would that reflect negatively on her as a broodmare...? (from a commercial standpoint, if you're selling)

Fees can go down for various reasons - a decline in popularity, fertility, the prices of his sale yearlings or progeny winnings. Maybe the fee is decreased simply as a marketing strategy to entice more breeders to bring mares to him. Mt Livermore will turn 24 in a few weeks, and at that age he has few seasons left.

The fee reduction wouldn't affect his broodmare status. That status is affected by the production record of his daughters.

that leads me to a question I wanted to ask concerning broodmare sires... Arctiana has Bold Ruckus as her sire, who is #15 on the broodmare sire list... so how does that stack up against Mt. Livermore? As in, who would you look at first and why?

That would depend on my purpose, my intended goal, for buying the mare in the first place.

If both mares are priced well below their market value, and I knew I could make a profit from a reselling her (either open or in foal), then I would choose the one most likely to offer the greater return on my investment - that might be the Mt. Livermore filly since the Bold Ruckus mare is much older, hasn't produced anything to date and could have repro problems. If my goal was to breed either mare for the market, then both mares might be unacceptable since the foal's immediate catalog page will be light. If I wanted to breed either mare for a horse to race, then I'd choose the one with the best potential to produce a race horse after thoroughly assessing the objective data, i.e., conformation, temperment, pedigree, race record, production history of the dams, and in the case of the older mare, her history of producing viable foals the past couple of years. The last thing I want when buying a broodmare is someone else's trouble - I don't care how sterling their race record, pedigree or previous production history is - if they won't conceive and/ or carry a foal to term, they're worthless.

st. louis kid · Postby **st. louis kid** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:21 pm

I don't understand your reference to Arctiana, is this mare for sale also?