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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:13 pm 
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Suckling

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:22 pm
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I am curious about other people's sales tactics. I am planning (have been planning for several years now) on attending the KeeNov sale in 2015 to buy my first broodmare. I am a 15 year fan of the sport but aside from owning an OTTB for pleasure I have no experience in the industry. My budget will be around 15k. Is it even possible to purchase a decent mare for this price? Should I start investigating bloodstock agents to help me? Is private purchase a better option? Because of my budget I assume I'll be in the last session of the sale and looking at either 15 yr old + mares or maidens. Basically I think I'm looking for advice in how to get involved (on the breeding end) for a first timer. So far, in studying catalogs, I've noticed I tend to gravitate toward mares who have won races rather than non winners with slightly better catalog pages. But since I plan to bred to sell, at least initially, I'm not sure if that's the right angle.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:23 am 
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Grade I Winner
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http://www.janebuchananbloodstock.com/

She has had some good results from cheapish purchases.

Try get a winning mare 1/2 to at least a stakes winner maybe that has a granddam who has won at graded stakes and put the mare into a regional program.

When its closer to Nov and the catalog comes out I'll post some suggestions for you to go see.
I'm sure others will do the same for you.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:32 am 
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Grade I Winner
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Here is one for sale for $750
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34391

Lovely looking mare take her to NY to Freud or Frost Giant both $10,000 stud fee.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:16 am 
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Suckling

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Thanks Dublino


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:00 pm 
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Allowance Winner

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:17 am
Posts: 318
Before purchasing my first broodmare I attended a weekend seminar(I actually went 2 consecutive years) in Lexington, KY put on by the thorougbred owners and breeders association(TOBA). The seminar covered most aspects of breeding commercially. From stallion selection to pasture management. Along with the knowledge offered ,the people I met through the seminar have been an invaluable source of knowledge and networking. There are many opportunities to purchase thoroughbreds from people who are getting out of the business for various reasons. The more horseman you are exposed to, the more opportunities to take advantage of deals that are out there. Good luck! !!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:51 pm 
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Suckling

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Awesome, thanks Blue Feather. I was wondering if the TOBA seminars/membership would be a good idea.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:36 pm 
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Starters Handicap

Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:35 am
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I hope you are watching the current KEEJAN sale closely. You can definitely purchase an interesting package in the 15k range. But you have to be vigilant. It always surprises me how some people come up with great purchases when n offering falls through the cracks. It happened today and there was one that went for exactly 15k today that was a great deal... The purchaser was an experienced manager that was obviously paying attention.

good luck


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:22 am 
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Suckling

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Thanks ct, I am watching KeeJan very closely as you suggest. I've gone through the catalog and marked mares I like that might be in my range...just as an exercise I guess. Most of the mares I pegged as within my range should be selling today, tomorrow, and Thursday but I was surprised to see a few from yesterday that I liked and were within my range.

Can anyone comment on hip 210? I had her marked as a good broodmare prospect and I was surprised to see the 10k price tag. Can we just assume she's badly conformed? Thanks for offering comments everyone, this is helping me learn a lot.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:46 am 
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Newborn

Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:38 am
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Good afternoon DonaldT.

Hip 210 is BOUTIQUE, by Tale of the Cat, there are several issues with this mare. First of all her sire; Tale of the Cat: Broodmaresire index 3.66% Stakeswinners from foals produced. That's not much to boast with. Should atleast be 5.00%. Then there is the fact, that she is not in foal to any stallion. She has not produced any foals before. This mare has a huge gambling factor that goes with her.

A better choice would have been; Hip 579. ARCH NEMESIS, by Arch, she sold for $26,000. Her Sire Arch Broodmare Sire index 7.23% Stakes Winners from foals produced. She is in foal to TRAPPE SHOT, 2015 FEE: $10,000 STANDS & NURSES.
She is already the Dam of 4 other registered foals, 4 of racing age, including a 2-year-old of 2015, 2 to race, 2 winners--
Mr Archie (g. by El Corredor). 4 wins at 3 and 4, 2014, $36,698.
Civil Disobedience (f. by Dixie Union). Winner at 2, $12,080.

In my opinion, Broodmare Sire index, Stakes Winners from foals produced over 5.00%, should be a major factor in the evaluation of the mare.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:19 am 
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Suckling

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:22 pm
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Thank you Teunis, this is very good information. It's is really helpful to hear other people's sales catalog strategies since I am so new to this. I have always paid much more attention to the first two dams and their produce record but I think aiming for a broodmare sire with 5% is a good angle, and one I had not considered before. I saw that Tale of the Cat is currently listed as the 26th broodmare sire on the BH list and I assumed that was adequate...but I think I should pay more attention to the % winners or % stakes winners as you suggest.

I actually kind of like mares who haven't produced yet or who only have one foal on the ground and I think it's because I'm too scared to purchase a mare who has four or five foals who haven't done anything of note.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:17 am 
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2yo Maiden

Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:50 am
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Location: East Coast
Hi DonaldT

I must agree with Blue Feather, that the seminars might be a good place to start. The commercial market is VERY hard because it is completely irrational and is centered around “what have you done for me lately”. I was born into the breeding business and even so, going from breed to race over to commercial breeding was a steep climb (I changed over when I left my parents’ and bought my own farm). You are either hot or you’re not and if you’re not, you lose a butt load of money. Female families that produce something hot will allow for a weak dam sire to be forgiven (but not forever!). I have an incredibly pedigreed Smart Strike mare, some of his best runners are from this family and she is ¾ to all of them. That mare has been completely unable to beat my weaker sired Pomeroy mare in the sales ring year after year. The main difference is that the Pomeroy mare has an incredibly hot female family that is adding new graded BT every year. The Pomeroy mare puts a solid physical on the foals and buyers love them and the family which very consistently beats the sire’s median. The Smart Strike mare’s family is cooling, her dam seems to not be able to get any consistency going and the best runner in the family keeps returning to work only to end up injured again and again.

For instance, hip # 702 at the 2014 KeeNov sale would not have been worth a dime as a broodmare in 2012. You would have been laughed out of the sales ring. 2013 comes and Giovanni Boldini (son of War Front) hits in the BC Juve Turf. Someone picked up Magic Madison, put her infoal to The Factor (son of War Front) for $15K, ran her through the sale (cataloged as 702 no less!) and got $60K for her. I own a branch of this family so I am very familiar with it and can attest to the impact 1 Giovanni Boldini makes (I bought my mare privately as a maiden for well under value when I noticed Giovanni Boldini coming on).

Hip 210, Boutique, sold for about where she should based on the fact that while she does have BT under the first dam, there is a lack of graded BT and her dam is getting older. However, I think this mare could end up being a real bargain down the road. First, the best runners from her mother were both fillies and both are actively being bred to good sires. This offers a lot of potential for solid updates. The next thing is that this is a solid Saratoga Select family, some of them were “outs” but those horses still made the cut for that highly competitive sale. Boutique sold for $80K at that sale and just had a full sibling sell for $130K there. That means that you have at least one more youngster that people have high expectations for under the first dam and as an added bonus, it’s a filly so another potential producer. I see lots of room for upside here.

I must respectfully disagree about hip 579, she is commercially unappealing in the US market and her sales show that. She is over 10. Her mother is 20, was exported, there is no evidence of any registered foals in the JC system since at least 2010 (I didn’t go back any further) and hip 579 is the only daughter she had. This means that the mare will get no catalog update help at all from her mother and it looks like most of the rest of her family is outside the US, what little there is. While her mother is a G1 champion it's in Peru on the grass, not exactly desirable in the US market. Her dam had 3 foals go to auction including Arch Nemesis who sold for $6K as a weanling, a Hennessy for $35,000 (I believe he stood for around $60K when that horse was bred and his median was $90k so a loss on that one), and a Smoke Glacken for $60k as a yearling (no idea on stud fee but possibly a win, at least beat $40K median that year). So one potentially profitable horse from her dam which is not enough to justify the cost of upkeep. Arch Nemesis herself has not had good sales either. Dixie Union 2yr old for $19K (big money loss), El Corredor yrling for $2,700 (loss), City Zip that sold for $50k yrling ($20,000 stud fee so a borderline win but the industry rule is 3x stud fee for a win and just managed to make the median), then an Artie Schiller that just RNA'd for $14K on a $10k stud fee (would make that likely to be a loss if they get it sold). The foal she is carrying is a bubble year sire, so that one could go either big win if you get really lucky or huge loss (only 1 in 10 stallions that go to stud make it commercially). The bubble is always risky even with popular horses like Trappe Shot. Look at how his weanlings in yr one (2013) had a median of $66,000 then in 2014 had a median of $38,500. Even if Trappe Shot hits it big, this mare has never once beat the median for any sire that she was bred to so that indicates that there is a pretty low likelihood that you will end up with a profitable foal anyway. One borderline win out of that many foals in her best production years doesn't make for a very promising commercial future or even begin to cover the cost of the mare.

If you are breeding for commercial purposes, it only makes sense to go with families the market has already said they like. The hardest part of this business is knowing when to let go, cut bait, and move on! No matter how good a mare looks on paper, if the foals are bad, it’s a bad investment. You can overcome some short falls on paper with an outstanding physical, you can never overcome a poor physical with paper.

I think you are on the right track, hopefully the market will end up rewarding you for the effort you are putting forth!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:29 pm 
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Suckling

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:22 pm
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Wow, thanks Cherry, this is so incredibly helpful. I live in a state where horse racing basically doesn't exist and beyond reading the TDN and the Bloodhorse everyday I have zero contact with the industry. So talking to people actually involved in the industry is really important to me. When I'm looking at these catalog pages I have things that I instantly cross off and other things that immediately pique my interest but I don't know if I am on the right track or if I am considering things that aren't that important. Thanks for your advice!

I see exactly what you mean regarding Magic Madison...this isn't a mare I would have even considered in 2012. Nor do I see a way to predict that she would have been a good buy in 2012...some things must be luck I guess?

Once I actually purchase my first mare, I will be back on these boards soliciting breeding advice too, I'm sure :) When I'm ready to purchase my first mare I want to make sure I walk into the sale with a clear idea of what I want and what I don't want. And going through these catalogs and talking to everyone on here is helping me distill that down. And, although, I can't say I'm going to make money (and I'm going into this with the attitude "I will probably lose my initial investment and I'm okay with that") I feel like, if I do my research and control my expectations, I will definitely have fun and...who knows...maybe I will actually show a profit!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:56 pm 
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Allowance Winner

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:17 am
Posts: 318
Breeding clinic scheduled for May 15-17 in Lexington,KY. Website
www.toba.org


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:29 pm 
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Suckling

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:22 pm
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Thanks Blue Feather! I think I might sign up for this...


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:27 pm 
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Breeder's Cup Contender

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
Posts: 1756
I'm guessing from your comment about maiden or older that you're looking on a fairly modest budget. That means you're going to have to take some time to learn what flaws in a mare and her page you're willing to put up with, and which you won't.

Here are some mares from the FT Kentucky Winter Mixed:

http://www.fasigtipton.com/catalogs/2015/0208/586.pdf
http://www.fasigtipton.com/catalogs/2015/0208/558.pdf
http://www.fasigtipton.com/catalogs/2015/0208/596.pdf
http://www.fasigtipton.com/catalogs/2015/0208/399.pdf

Hip 586 has a great big shining star on her page--half to a Gr-1 winner--but this is a mare who raced at 3, 4, 5, and 6 and her lifetime earnings is just over $31k. With 5 wins, that puts her somewhere about $5000 winner's purse for each win...that's running for a $10k tag. She didn't inherit her half-brother's talent, and racing talent is highly heritable. She won't get any more help from her dam, who is no longer producing (possibly deceased?), and isn't likely to get any help from her half-sister, who was sired by the utter disaster of a stallion Buddha. She's in foal on an April cover to a horse who raced once, and whose first foals will be 2yos at the time her foal is born. Her first foal is by a similarly unproven stallion. Then there's the question of why is she being sold after only producing one foal. Are her current owners trying to pump up their stallion, or was her first foal a conformation train wreck, or are they dissolving a partnership?

Hip 558 also has a shining star--her dam is a Gr-1 winner and the dam's half-sister produced a champion mare who won stakes races on three continents. This family is consistently producing good runners, including a stakes horse under the first dam and this mare's young half-sister has already produced a stakes winner (by City Zip). More Than Ready daughters are on the whole better runners than his sons, and it shouldn't be difficult to find mates for a MTR mare. On the downside, her family is Chilean, so it might be difficult to overcome market bias against South American families. The other big downside is her race record: unraced at 2 and 3, started 3 times over the next 2 years and was unplaced in all of them. Was she slow, or unsound, or both?

Hip 596 has the weakest catalogue page of all of the mares here. She's not a stakes winner, her dam is not a stakes winner, and while there's some solid graded stakes production under the second dam, that would be 3 back on the page of a sales foal. Her dam was exported to Korea in 2008, so there won't be any help from her, and the dam's other foals are all geldings. The mare has won a lot of money, but it was in claiming and the occasional AOC race--the one time she stepped up to allowance company she was well beaten. That said, this mare won more purse money than all three other mares listed here combined. She is the best foal of her dam by a long way. She's by an excellent stallion who I would expect to be an excellent broodmare sire, and it's a fashionable-enough name to get attention. She was durable, she paid her bills, she won on synth and dirt and is from a turf family, and her pedigree is open to just about anybody.

Hip 399 is by a hot stallion (Tapit), out of a stakes-winning mare, and she ran in good allowance company. So far so good...except that the dam is the only stakes winner in for 2 generations, and there isn't any graded talent for the first 4 generations. Her dam is still producing, has some daughters by nice stallions which is good, but none of the daughters have come close to replicating their dam's talent on the track. The second-best performer, by Corinthian, is now a broodmare in a regional program so no help from her. Go back to the second dam and the sires of her foals are all modest regional racehorse stallions, so no likelihood to improve the page from them. Really, this filly is the best bred in her family for 4 generations....so while she and her dam are signs of improving talent in the family, it's not likely to improve SO much that this filly will start producing consistent stakes level talent which is what the sales market wants.

So, which one appeals to you most? Which one's achievements and breeding suit what you're trying to do? What flaws are you willing to live with, and which ones are dealbreakers? Are you planning on being in a regional program with breeders' awards? What market do you want to sell in? Some horses will appeal more to certain buyers at certain sales, and if you're aiming for those sales, which mare will suit that market best? (For example, old Maryland bloodlines have a lot of fans at FT-October MidAtlantic.)

That's what you should aim to take away from the breeders' seminar, and it might help to find a bloodstock advisor to help you find the mare that best suits what you want to do. Good luck!


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