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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:16 am 
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hi Rok

Rokeby Forever wrote:
Hi FOS,

And a Happy New Year to you!

I did see the replay. Indeed, this colt can motor! Let's hope he holds together and continues to develop.

Gorgeous Goose is a filly Rok...and I agree that she can really motor (your word).


Rokeby Forever wrote:
If I have one concern, it might be how differently he'd race on taller East Coast turf. I hope we find out in 2008.

Interesting...I don't recall ever hearing the reference East Coast turf (your words). Regardless the length of the turf (grass)...I find that SoCal turf is quite dependably firm, whereas turf courses on the east coast seem to often be listed as something other than a firm surface.

To my way of thinking, it's not so much about the length of the grass/turf as it is about the moisture content in the ground.

All too often, it seems (to me anyway) that horses up and down the east coast (particularly) are running over turf surfaces listed as good (or possibly softer) whereas the SoCal turf (in general) is (or at least it seems that way to me anyway) almost always listed as firm.

That said...seems to me that firm turf is the more level (if you will) playing field than softer (than firm that is) turf conditions.

I don't know that the length of the blades of grass/turf would concern me so much as the water content in the ground. Continuing that thought...I also get a sense (would you agree) that the European turfers (in general) handle the softer turf surfaces a whole lot better than most North American turfers?

A glance/look at turf race results (throughout most of Europe in general)...seem to highlight the notion that more often than not the turf (throughout Europe anyway) is NOT listed as firm.

I might suggest that SoCal's turf surfaces are some of the most consistently firm surfaces anywhere (certainly in North America anyway). To my way of thinking that's arguably a good-thing (if for no other reason, it seems to me that knowing what the surface will likely be that a horse will race over is a good thing).

For what it's worth...it seems (to me anyway) that many horses not only come up (among other things) muscle-sore (when running over soft ground) but actually cannot handle it (to varying degrees).

Rok...it seems to me (as mentioned previously) that firm turf is the more level playing field (if you will)...to the extent that many (if not most) turfers (in North America anyway) seem (to my way of thinking anyway) to handle it (firm) better than a turf surface listed as good or softer?

Here's hoping that 2008 is a great year.

To your health.

Best

Respectfully


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 am 
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Rokeby Forever wrote:
Hi FOS,

And a Happy New Year to you!

I did see the replay. Indeed, this colt can motor! Let's hope he holds together and continues to develop.

If I have one concern, it might be how differently he'd race on taller East Coast turf. I hope we find out in 2008.

Best.


Hi Roke,
I wouldn't worry about this horse handling any type of footing or distance for that matter. Her dams sire would run on anything, remember Big Spruce and Elmendorf Farm? Big Spruce sired Gorgeous Goose' dam in his last season at stud....he was 27 years old!! It was a blast from the past seeing his name again:>)
Happy and Healthy New Year to all :>) TJ


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:09 am 
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Hi FOS,

What you write is true, but it seems to me that the SoCal turf courses are much shorter than the East Coast turf courses, and, IMO, many more dirt horses adapt to the shorter grass. It's my belief that the East Coast (and even Churchill Downs) turf is much more tiring, maybe not only because the turf courses tend to be softer, but because horses sink into it farther. Perhaps it's an optical illusion to me, but more times than not, the California turf courses look like a felt on a pool table. The turf at Belmont and Churchill has never given me that impression.

What I've come to notice, as well, is that many horses that do not not perform well on the turf in Europe suddenly become top turf horses in California, moreso than at Belmont. My theory is that these Euro horses that perform well in California might actually prefer the dirt over the turf, and that's why so many improve dramatically in California. On the other hand, the better Euro turf stock adapts well to the Belmont/Churchill turf...my thinking is that it's closer to the type of grass used on Euro courses than is the turf in California. Even when Belmont's grass is dry, the Euros still seem to appreciate it.

Best, as always, FOS. I always enjoy reading your thoughts.

Hi TJ,

Do I remember Big Spruce? Do you think I'm old enough to wear my belt buckle around my chest? LOL!

I have vague memories of seeing Big Spruce run against Forego on TV - if I remember correctly, he defeated Forego in the Marlboro Cup in the mud one year. But you're right - Big Spruce was also a top notch turf horse and distance wasn't a problem for him, just like all of Max Gluck's stock. I don't ever remember seeing Lefty Nickerson win a sprint for Elmendorf, do you?

Best to you, as well, TJ. More times than not, your thoughts give me a headache. LOL!

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What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:44 am 
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Hi TJ,

Do I remember Big Spruce? Do you think I'm old enough to wear my belt buckle around my chest? LOL!

I have vague memories of seeing Big Spruce run against Forego on TV - if I remember correctly, he defeated Forego in the Marlboro Cup in the mud one year. But you're right - Big Spruce was also a top notch turf horse and distance wasn't a problem for him, just like all of Max Gluck's stock. I don't ever remember seeing Lefty Nickerson win a sprint for Elmendorf, do you?

Best to you, as well, TJ. More times than not, your thoughts give me a headache. LOL![/quote]

Hi Roke,
I'm glad to see my thoughts are hitting their target and yes Big Spruce did defeat Forego in the 1974 Marlboro Cup. Arbee's Boy was second and Forego 3rd. This was the race that got people thinking Forego didn't like an off track. I think it was an excuse as Forego won the 1976 Marlboro Cup under the same conditions. Big Spruce was a real nice horse, he'd run on concrete if you asked him to. TJ


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:26 am 
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Hiya TJ - I didn't know they served breakfast at the Old Folk's Home this early!

Holy cow, Arbees Boy - I forgot all about him and George Weckerle. Arbees Boy ran against Forego 7 or 8 times in his career and I remember that Arbees Boy once beat him in the Met Mile.

Forego hated the mud, and when he won on it, it was just on class alone. Forego finished last in the Whitney in the mud, and in his final start, he ran next to last in the Suburban Handicap in the mud (he nosed out Cox's Ridge for last). I think throughout his career, Frank Whiteley scratched Forego out of 2 or 3 stakes because of the mud.

I remember that a lot of Big Spruces were plodders, but he also sired some long winded ones that could run. I'll never forget that Big Spruce was by Herbager because I used to work with a guy that called him "Her-bagger." LOL! So, I guess you're right....if Gorgeous Goose is like Big Spruce, she'll run all day on just about anything.

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What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:02 am 
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Rokeby Forever wrote:
Hiya TJ - I didn't know they served breakfast at the Old Folk's Home this early!

Holy cow, Arbees Boy - I forgot all about him and George Weckerle. Arbees Boy ran against Forego 7 or 8 times in his career and I remember that Arbees Boy once beat him in the Met Mile.

Forego hated the mud, and when he won on it, it was just on class alone. Forego finished last in the Whitney in the mud, and in his final start, he ran next to last in the Suburban Handicap in the mud (he nosed out Cox's Ridge for last). I think throughout his career, Frank Whiteley scratched Forego out of 2 or 3 stakes because of the mud.

I remember that a lot of Big Spruces were plodders, but he also sired some long winded ones that could run. I'll never forget that Big Spruce was by Herbager because I used to work with a guy that called him "Her-bagger." LOL! So, I guess you're right....if Gorgeous Goose is like Big Spruce, she'll run all day on just about anything.


Hi Roke,
I think Forego liked an off track, he was smart and would protect himself when the track was off. He did run down Honest Pleasure and Father Hogan, two mud lovers over a bad track in the 76 Marlboro. Two years after Big Spruce beat him in the Marlboro Cup. All those Marlboro Cup's were great races, Iwish people kept smoking so they could have continued that race:>)
George Wekerle was an oldie but a goodie. This trainers name will blow your old memories mind. George had a 1/2 brother to Arbee's Boy that he couldn't get to run and sold him to Ralph Sanseverino (sp), I knew Ralph and he wasn't the sharpest tack in the box but he did get to the bottom of this horse. Just like Arbee's Boy who lit the tote board up at 60-1 when he beat Forego so did this horse. Darned if that horse didn't make me think this is an easy game, he paid telephone numbers, do you remeber Camangie?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:33 am 
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TJ,

Guys like Ralph Sanseverino were born to be forgotten. No, I don't remember that horse and thank God I barely remember Ralph. I think he learned everything he knew from Harry Wendell - they'd each win a race once every world war and nothing in between. LOL!

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What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:51 am 
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Rokeby Forever wrote:
TJ,

Guys like Ralph Sanseverino were born to be forgotten. No, I don't remember that horse and thank God I barely remember Ralph. I think he learned everything he knew from Harry Wendell - they'd each win a race once every world war and nothing in between. LOL!


Roke,
Everybody big and small contributes something during their lifetime in this business. Heck, Ralph trained Antilassa too, she produced Lottsa Talc and Appealing Guy, two well known NY Breds. Now remember, a new year is dawning be kind and humble as your belt buckle slowly rises to your chest :roll: :lol: TJ


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:44 pm 
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TJ,

Antilassa couldn't run from my sofa to my refrigerator, but I remember the other two well. If you want me to credit Ralph Sanseverino with feeding her - job well done!

Appealing Guy was a nice horse that I think fat Gary Sciacca broke down, and Lottsa Talc was a NY favorite for a long time that I think Tim Kelly trained. If memory serves me, a guy named Charlie Werner owned a piece of her - he was a really fat guy with glasses that used to sit at the bar in the old Aqueduct restaurant on the 2nd floor and all he did all day long was tear up tickets. I think he won the NY Derby with a horse one year, but I forget the horse's name.

Happy now? I gave your friend Ralph his due.

And I don't have a stromach - it's a low chest. So my belt buckle is already there. LOL!

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What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU


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