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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:18 am 
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George William Smith wrote:
Geowarrior, I'm still laughing. We might have a real dogfight at the back of the pack.

TJ....Unbridled Vicar wiped him out once early in the race, then down the backstretch he was in tight the whole way and the stewards photos showed him bouncing off the rail or at least getting paint on Borel's boots.

The stretch run from the head on was the trip from hell. First he saved ground with Pyro around that last turn, spotted a hole a slipped through it, and Pyro got blocked, but swung out clear just barely slicing through a hole [so Pyro is not chicken], then out and clear and whoosh....Blackberry Road though hit the wall of leaders and had no where to run....was going out made a move that way then [from the stewards video] then the horse outside of him came over so he went to go back inside but that where the wandering Visionaire was and was blocked for the last time when Pyro came over a bit and Z Fortune moved over and then it was over. He was 5th, but I've seen every race of his and this is the first time that I thought he knew what he was supposed to do [not being green in attitude though he runs straight.]

Watch the stretch run from the blood-horse and you can see some of his trouble if you don't watch Pyro and just watch him.

Of course, I might be seeing things that I want to see, but he looked mature today. I think there is also a good chance he got cut up pretty bad in the melee. Pyro ran a biggie and a great ride on him.


Hi George,
I see what you were talking about. I'm surprised there wasn't a claim against Unbridled Vicar for coming over on him and causing him to check. It looked like Blackberry also hit the fence (at that point) when he was forced to pull up when Vicar dropped over on him. Through the lane Borel really never asked him for a real run and didn't take the one opportunity, he did have, to bust through between horses. Instead Borel chose to steady him along behind horses. That ride, the eventful and unlucky trip certainly left something to be desired. This race was not a true indicator of his ability. Just hope he came out of that battle OK. TJ


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:39 am 
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bdw

In my opinion, a plodder is a horse that plods along and picks up the pieces to win or finish in the money, no one that explodes at the finish, passing the entire field, even if they were bunched up, and running the last quarter in 22 and change. I would not classify Pyro as a plodder.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:49 am 
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here is my point DDT, and maybe "plodder" was a bad choice of words. he still hasn't "closed" in a grade 1 race to win it. he's a horse with loads of talent. i won't argue that. but i he got beat twice by the same horse and everyone thinks somehow he is better. he comes too far behind for my liking.

in fact i'll concede he isn't a true plodder, but I'm not a fan of his running style. he reminds me alot of Circular Quay. he is too pace depedant and too much has to happen for him to win and while his running style says he should get better with more distance, the same could be said for circular quay. Pulpit to me doesn't cream 10 furlongs.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:49 am 
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Thanks DDT. That was sort of my impression too.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:48 am 
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bdw0617 wrote:
here is my point DDT, and maybe "plodder" was a bad choice of words. he still hasn't "closed" in a grade 1 race to win it. he's a horse with loads of talent. i won't argue that. but i he got beat twice by the same horse and everyone thinks somehow he is better. he comes too far behind for my liking.

in fact i'll concede he isn't a true plodder, but I'm not a fan of his running style. he reminds me alot of Circular Quay. he is too pace depedant and too much has to happen for him to win and while his running style says he should get better with more distance, the same could be said for circular quay. Pulpit to me doesn't cream 10 furlongs.


BDW,
You think Pyro is pace dependant?? Did you see the very slow fractions of the Risen Star. Pyro still took charge and ran as fast a final 5/16ths as any horse you will ever see. He took charge of that slow pace and stamped his superiority. I will agree that the race wasn't loaded with talent, yet a sign of a good horse is the ability to overcome adversity. Pyro's running style certainly put him at a disadvantage considering the slow early fractions, yet he took charge and ran his eyeballs out to overcome that disadvantage.
I agree with you that he has a lot to prove, the race itself didn't merit top figures and I thought Indian Blessing was just as, if not more, impressive in winning her race. Yet visually Pyro's race was stunning and if he had not run so quickly through the lane to get the job done I would of agreed with you, that the race was run of the mill, ordinary, walkin his beat as he was suppose to and therefore meaningless. TJ


Last edited by TJ on Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:55 am 
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1. stop picking and choosing what part of my post you want to pick apart. answer the entire thing. he has to have too much to happen for him for him to win and i'm not convincedhe won't level out at longer distances a la circular quay.

2. yes, against a GRADE 1 FIELD he is pace depedant. his class won this race.


he's good. he's very good. but he didn't prove anything in this race he hadn't already proven. that's all im sayin. you can't put him at the top of this class.. right now you are epxericing a lack of racing and people jumping on the bandwagon of anything running. because i promise you at thoose fractions today war pass could have went to ihop in the middle of the race and still won by 4

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:07 am 
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TJ wrote:
I thought Indian Blessing was just as, if not more, impressive in winning her race.

Hi TJ,

Indian Blessing showed yesterday that she can rate, but I didn't like the way she finished - again. I think 1 1/16th is just about her limit.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:17 am 
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hey but she's not a 2 turn filly :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:05 pm 
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bdw0617 wrote:
1. stop picking and choosing what part of my post you want to pick apart. answer the entire thing. he has to have too much to happen for him for him to win and i'm not convincedhe won't level out at longer distances a la circular quay.

2. yes, against a GRADE 1 FIELD he is pace depedant. his class won this race.


he's good. he's very good. but he didn't prove anything in this race he hadn't already proven. that's all im sayin. you can't put him at the top of this class.. right now you are epxericing a lack of racing and people jumping on the bandwagon of anything running. because i promise you at thoose fractions today war pass could have went to ihop in the middle of the race and still won by 4


BDW,
I didn't pick apart anything you didn't say....you said he was pace dependent. A pace dependent horse would not be able to overcome slow early fractions to win.....Pyro sprouted wings at the end of that race!

Now in this post you say he is pace dependent in GR 1 races only. Make up your mind, is he pace dependent, or is he now just pace dependent in a GR1 race. Grade One races usually have a much faster pace to begin with, therefore his running style would be aided. The point is the horse you have previuosly called a plodder, which you now say was a bad choice of words, overcame his plodder status in the Risen Star to run as fast as any 3YO could run through the lane.

Read my post, I didn't say anything about putting him at the top of this class, there are too many prep races to see yet. If you can't appreciate Pyro's ability to overcome what looked like certain defeat at the head of the lane in the Risen Star.....we will just have to disagree once again. TJ


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:17 pm 
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THAT IS ONE way to look at it TJ. the field ran 6F in 1:14. the way I see it is that a horse that can't hold up after going freakin 1:14 in a grade 3 is not worthy of mentioning.

what he did was visually impressive but let's not pretend it was seattle slew v. exceller or anything.


it's no "make up your mind" TJ, that's the problem. it's not a black or white issue. a classy horse will beat a horse without class regardless of the pace. Pace only comes into play at that horses highest level of competition. in ohter words, at what circumstances can this horse win on his or her highest level.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:36 pm 
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Anytime a horse closes into a paceless race it needs to be noted.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:43 pm 
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no it doesn't. not everytime. most of the time. but then again most of the time hroses are put up against horses of their same class. pyro is about 8 lengths better than any horse in this race on any given day.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:52 pm 
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bdw0617 wrote:
THAT IS ONE way to look at it TJ. the field ran 6F in 1:14. the way I see it is that a horse that can't hold up after going freakin 1:14 in a grade 3 is not worthy of mentioning.

what he did was visually impressive but let's not pretend it was seattle slew v. exceller or anything.


it's no "make up your mind" TJ, that's the problem. it's not a black or white issue. a classy horse will beat a horse without class regardless of the pace. Pace only comes into play at that horses highest level of competition. in ohter words, at what circumstances can this horse win on his or her highest level.


I remember this issue of time and fractions being talked about once before between us in the Delta Jackpot thread. The quality of a race horse is dependent upon the horses ability to put his 1/8ths together. In any given race a horse that has the ability to go along the running of a race in 12's to an 1/8th and then can finish along the way with 11's over a two turn route race is a sign of bigger and better things to come. Years ago a good friend of mine was galloping an amazing 2YO. That year he was also galloping a champion 3YO, yet was telling me how this unraced 2YO was a better horse. He would tell me of this horses ability to run faster at the end of his gallops and works consistently and progressively getting stronger along the way. When he got to the races he ran them in that same manner, getting stronger and faster as the race progressed. He turned out being a decent race horse, his name was Secretariat....and the 3YO he was galloping was Riva Ridge (J.G.). What I learned from that horse is racing is all about putting consecutively faster 1/8ths into the running of a race, culminating in the ability to finish the last 1/4 of the race faster then all other 1/4's throughout the race. Secretariat's amazing Belmont was the culmination of the ability to do this, when he averaged 12 seconds per 1/8 over that 1 1/2 mile test of champions (being 12 1/8ths in a 1 1/2 miles x12 seconds=2:24).
If you break down Pyro's race you will see that he was going along in 12's and change for the first 1/2 mile accounting for his first 1/4 in 25 and change, his second 1/4 was almost 25. During the third 1/4 he was steadied along inside behind horses without much room or chance to run accounting for a slow 25.4. He started to pick up the pace after that running his fourth 1/4 in 23 which showed at least an 1/8th in 11 and his final 1/16th was a phenomenal 5.1 seconds with no real urging. That 5.1 would compute to a 10 and change 1/8 at the end of his race. To hear you pick apart a performance that special does make me wonder what what it takes to make you compliment a young 3YO. In order to survive in this business you will need to determine what you personally consider black and white as there are less gray area's than you would think in this business as you learn what it is truly about. That race yesterday was a great performance, is Pyro a great horse, heck I don't know that....at least not yet. If he can come back and do this again against better horses then we may have a better idea. As in Secretariat's case it was the ability to put together performances like these I have described to you....over and over without having that effort take its toll on him....that to me is what greatness is in a racehorse. But for now, give credit where credit is due. TJ....oh, you mentioned Seattle Slew, another good friend galloped him and stayed with him through every trainer he went to, great exercise rider and the power behind Slew's success because of his ability to be able to handle baby Huey (M.K.):>)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:55 pm 
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i think we are both actually saying the same thing TJ... it was an impressive race but an impressive race against non grade 1 caliber horses and we both are reserving judgment.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:03 pm 
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hey but she's not a 2 turn filly


F that, I think when I threw up in my mouth last night at Longshots it was a delayed reaction from when I saw her stagger home to hang on again. I hate horses like her.

Pyro is not a plodder, he's the man and still my Derby horse.

How many G1 2 turn races have there been so far that Pyro has had the chance to prove he isn't of that caliber.

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