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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:36 pm 
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I had a peek around the NZ TB site, SHowy COuntess, dam of CAB, had the following offspring. Curious if anyone can find pics of any of these progeny anywhere...
Search Results for SHOWY COUNTESS (NZ) 1969
Horse Colour Sex Sire
SHOWY COUNTESS (NZ) 1969 1978 b m JONATHAN R (IRE) 1970
ABE'S ORDER (NZ) 1975 ch g INDIAN ORDER (GB) 1962
AMAZON COUNT (NZ) 1980 b g FUNNY FELLOW (GB) 1970
BARNEY (NZ) 1977 ch g ALLGRIT (USA) 1969
CALAMITY JANE (NZ) 1979 gr m TRIGGER HAPPY (AUS) 1974
CATCH A BIRD (NZ) 1982 b or br h NOBLE BIJOU (USA) 1971
CRYING EYES (NZ) 1976 br m WANDERING EYES (GB) 1962
DODGE (NZ) 1986 ch g CENTURIUS (GB) 1978
OPTIONAL (NZ) 1983 gr m NATIVE TURN (USA) 1972

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:02 am 
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Shannon wrote:
ACC, if he was roan in his stripes, wouldn't that mean either his sire or dam should have been phenotypically roan? And I beleive I read some where he was not considered to be a chimera, so again, wouldn't one parent need to exhibit a roan pattern of some sort?
Which leads me to ask, did either his sire or dam throw any other babies of unique colour (I tried to access the names of other offspring by both sire and dam, but not a subscriber so couldn't access it).
No, neither parent would have needed to show Roan if Catch a Bird was the start of the new roan mutation.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:39 am 
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Riddle, if the roan was a new mutation unique to CAB, realistically would only 5 of his offspring show the roan characteristics? Wouldn`t it have shown a higher prevalence given the number of offspring he had? And given the grand-get, shouldn;t it likely have appeared down the line with more prevalence?
Taking a guess at how the roan colour appeared (and given one mare re-produced a roan phenotype) where would that mutation lie genetically? Could it realistically be tested as in QH's? AQHA does not argue the prescence of a roan gene/pattern.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:49 am 
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Shannon wrote:
Riddle, if the roan was a new mutation unique to CAB, realistically would only 5 of his offspring show the roan characteristics? Wouldn`t it have shown a higher prevalence given the number of offspring he had? And given the grand-get, shouldn;t it likely have appeared down the line with more prevalence?
Taking a guess at how the roan colour appeared (and given one mare re-produced a roan phenotype) where would that mutation lie genetically? Could it realistically be tested as in QH's? AQHA does not argue the prescence of a roan gene/pattern.


I thought that CAB didnt have many offspring to begin with. So only four having roan would be incredibly realistic. He also does have grandget with roan, from his roan offspriing.

It could lie anywhere really, though the most likely place would be in KIT. It could be tested for if they found the mutation for it yes.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:49 am 
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f.e. Slip Catch had about 50% non roan and 50% roan offspring. CAB had not many offspring and some were not even TB so nobody knows about these, we have a hard time to even track the TB roans.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:23 am 
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I've always thought that Catch a Bird was a somatic chimera. The mutations happened (Most likely in the KIT gene complex) relatively early in embryonic development, leaving some of his cells with no mutation, some with the "roan" mutation.

How this was expressed in Catch A Bird, was the white marks on his coat.

This kind of mutation only breeds on if the mutation includes tissue that becomes sex cells. A mutation that confines itself to a leg may be interesting, but not likely to breed on.

I knew someone that had a simian crease on on hand. (This is one of the common signs of Downs Syndrome) Lucky that the mutation confined itself to one hand, in all other respects this person was normal, and had normal kids.

As for offspring of CaB, last time I looked at the numbers of "roan" vs regular, they didn't work out to 50%, which would be the expected number if he was some kind of regular roan. Which is why I suspect he was a chimera of some sort.



The vet that owned him late in life had some issues, and who knows what kind of horses he sired in her care. But the horses Jorge has documented were sired before he ended up in the care of the vet.

There were some posts from the kind person who rescued him and gave him a loving home at the end of his life, and some photos. Using the search function should bring them up.

Don't know if the person is still looking at the board, but it seemed like the wording was very careful about the whole situation. Now that more time has passed and legal issues have been settled, more information might be forthcoming.

Just a note, there are at least two kinds of Chimeras. Some brindles are the result of two embryos combining, giving two different cell types within the resulting horse. The other kind is where there is a mutation of one cell in the embryo, and only cells that descend from the that one change will carry the new mutation.

So lets say the mutation happens when the embryo has only 4 cells. 3 cells and all the cell lines will be normal. The mutation will only show up in cell lines that come from the changed cell.

Brings new meaning to the term Quarter Horse.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:31 am 
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color wrote:
f.e. Slip Catch had about 50% non roan and 50% roan offspring. CAB had not many offspring and some were not even TB so nobody knows about these, we have a hard time to even track the TB roans.


There are 34 different get listed under the 2 entries for Catch A Bird in the database, all presumably TBs, so he probably had more partbred foals.

If CAB was an oddly marked "true roan", which I cannot believe, then he should have had about 50% roan offspring or certainly more than 5, even allowing for the vagaries of chance in that small number of matings.

If CAB was a variety of rabicano roan then having only 5 offspring from 34 wouldn't be surprising because there's a lot of factors that determine white patterns. With "true roan", a horse that carries the gene shows it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Let post this information from a previous thread I posted here at:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... hp?t=19886


Dear Collaborators:

The following 31 Thoroughbreds were sired by the bridle sire,
Catch A Bird (NZ)(Bay H 1982), but they aren't registered here. Unfortunately I don't have their names, but perhaps someone
can assist us on this one. Thanks in advance for any help.

YOB Colour Sex Sire Dam

1992 Brown Filly CAB Missway (Aus) 1986
1993 Brown colt CAB Heavenly Kingdom (Aus) '81
1993 Bay filly CAB Leirum (Aus) 1978
1993 Brown filly CAB Missway (Aus) 1986
1993 Bay colt CAB Odeon (Aus) 1981
1994 Bay colt CAB Arctic Moss (Aus) 1983
1994 Bay colt CAB Heavenly Kingdom (Aus) '81
1994 Bay filly CAB Leirum (Aus) 1978
1994 Bay filly CAB Periodical (Aus) 1982
1994 brown filly CAB Sing For Sam (Aus) 1981
1994 Bay colt CAB Tuesday’s News (Aus) 1985
1994 ? ? CAB Fair Joanna (Aus) 1986
1995 Bay colt CAB Fussy Girl (Aus) 1982
1995 Bay filly CAB Maktoum’s Magic (Aus) 1987
1995 bay filly CAB Out of Season (Aus) 1981
1995 brown colt CAB Petanne (Aus) 1984
1995 Bay filly CAB Western Gateway (Aus) 1985
1996 Brown colt CAB Arctic Moss (Aus) 1983
1996 bay filly CAB Burgani (Aus) 1982
1996 bay colt CAB City Saint (Aus) 1984
1996 bay filly CAB Midnight Marauder (Aus) 1985
1996 Bay filly CAB Pour The Wine (Aus) 1974
1997 Bay filly CAB Bending Star (Aus) 1986
1998 brown filly CAB Burgani (Aus) 1982
1998 bay colt CAB Fair Joanna (Aus) 1986
1999 bay colt CAB Lisa’s Retreat (Aus) 1987
2001 Brown colt CAB Demelza (Aus) 1986
2001 Bay filly CAB Krystal Sunrise (Aus) 1986
2001 bay gelding CAB No Stress (NZ) 1986
2002 bay gelding CAB No Stress (NZ) 1986
2003 bay colt CAB Demelza (Aus) 1986


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:08 pm 
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I noticed there were several offspring of CAB's showing as "dropped from official registar" at varying dates over the last few years. Why would this happen? Could it be due to suspect parentage?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:42 pm 
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No, NOT due to suspect parentage.

In Australia, once a TB mare becomes BREEDING stock, she must be "Returned" to the studbook every year, regardless of whether they have had a foal that year or not..
Its all about fees.Even if the mare is NOT served, or slips a foal, she still needs to be returned so that the records are updated (and the correct fees are paid.)
You could purchase a mare that has not been returned, and providing you pay the arrears the she will be updated or reinstated.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:48 pm 
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Interestingly enough, al the relevant videos have been removed from youtube.. Did anyone happen to save them?.. It is indeed very curious!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:48 pm 
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belambi, can you elaborate on the term "return" as it applies to the AUS stud book?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:26 pm 
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http://www.tbaus.com/page.aspx?docid=32


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:48 am 
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Found this while perusing the AUS Studbook rules
"Non-Thoroughbred colours
For Non Thoroughbred horses in the official records, six additional
colours (appaloosa, cream, dun, palomino, pied and roan) are
recognised
Roan
Genes for the true roan are not present in the Australian Stud Book
Thoroughbred. Imported Thoroughbreds described elsewhere as
roans have been either transitional greys or simply had extensive
evenly dispersed white hairs or ticking"

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:16 pm 
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I asked Sponenberg about CAB and his foals and he said he was probably the source of the mutation but HE was not the mutation so he could only pass it on and depending on the type he would not necessarily have 50-50 offspring. In fact as noted above he might just be able to pass it on to a few. But his roan Offspring should produce like true roans. And they have. Unfortunately nobody was interested in studying his DNA while he was alive and now it is too late.

I believe the vet who sold CAB did not have any pure TB offspring left of his but she bred him to a lot of stock horses, grade horses and standardbreds for some reason and she did seem to have quite a few roan descendants of his however most were unregistered as I recall. At any case CAB had been gone several years (sold on I mean!) and had been infertile before that when she was finally caught. I can't remember but I think he might also have died before this too. I don't think his TB offspring form enough of a statistical pool except perhaps to prove that he probably was not able to pass his mutation along 50-50 but because there are so few of them you can't really say that he didn't for sure!

Well if I ever win Lotto I'll buy up the lot of them! :D

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