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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:02 pm 
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In spite of the 4 known characteristics of an appaloosa, how much difficult is to detect and identify an old gray-out appaloosa? Please share your experience.
Thanks


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:09 pm 
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You can also share your story at:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/forum/p ... ply&t=3954


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:00 am 
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Jorge, color is only one of the Appaloosa characteristics. The eye sclera, which gives the horse a very human looking eye with white around the pupil, the mottled skin around the muzzle and genitals, and the unusual short and upstanding mane are the other very obvious App indicators.

My 24 year old App is a Varnish Roan who still looks like a Varnish Roan, but she has become more and more like a fleabit gray over the years. You'd still never mistake her for anything but App, even without the roaned head and legs and red mane.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:37 pm 
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vineyridge wrote:
... and the unusual short and upstanding mane are the other very obvious App indicators.


Interesting angle of study. I am aware on the 4 basic indicators but can you abound on the mane trait. Have you seen something suspicious on any given TB lineage? Thanks in advance for your comments.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:09 am 
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An appy/mustang cross gelding was my first horse ever when I was a teen. He was 3/4 appy and 1/4 mustang and a big red varnish roan, kind of cinnamon colored. Huge, though, at about 15.3 and quite stout. The farrier also said he had feet like skillets, big and very hard, they were tough to clip and rasp. He said that is a common trait of appys, too, the tough feet. Another one that I've seen on other appys is what they call a "rat tail". Just barely enough to cover their cleavage! <lol>

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:24 pm 
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Jorge, I've never seen anything like her mane on a TB (or any other non-Appy horse). I'll take a picture of it. It has never been pulled or roached; it's the way nature made it.

I'll also try and take a picture of her eye for you.

Here is what Wiki has to say about the manes and tails. It's footnoted, so more reliable that if not.
Quote:
While the original, "old time" Appaloosas often had a sparse mane and tail, it was not a predisposition for the breed as a whole; even many original Appaloosas had full manes and tails. Today the "rat tail" trait is usually bred away from and most "modern" Appaloosas have full manes and tails.[31]


Here's a cite to The Manual of Equine Dermatology that talks about this trait in Appaloosas.
http://tinyurl.com/68e3jb

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:58 am 
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The Lp gene actually causes a flaw in the hair, weakens it so it breaks easily and sometimes falls out. Some people have used supplements and helped that a bit but I don't recall what they used.

A gray app will lose ALL color just like a grey horse. If the horse was patterned you can often see the pattern under the hair if the horse is clipped or in summer coat and gets wet. Otherwise you can look for the other characteristics, mottled skin, striped hooves, sclera and hopefully ID the horse as at least part appaloosa. But the reason the app color has persisted (albeit at a VERY low level) in some breeds is GRAY! They just hide the foal from site until it greys out enough! There are Lp horses in Paso Finos, Andalusians/Lustanos, TWH, QH and probably a few others. Due to continued culling though it probably won't be long until they are all gone even with gray's help.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:23 pm 
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The most famous grey appy stallion was probably Alias King. His sire (who I met in person) was also a grey.

AK was a bay with a large blanket like his son Dreeamfinder. When he died he was pure white. A varnish roan would have retained some color near the varnish marks 99% of the time. You can see how AK's face has darkened up around the mottled areas like a grey horse does.
http://www.kennardfarms.com/index.html

Here he is showing how his pattern and spots have faded and are fading...
http://appaloosaphotohistoryfinder.blog ... chive.html
About halfway down the page, he's the only grey on there.

Here is a picture of Dreamfinder (4th one down or so) which is very similar to what AK looked like. And suddenly there is AK again...
http://appaloosaphotohistoryfinder.blog ... reamfinder

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:01 pm 
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go down to Clear Vision I think it is and that is a few spot. Notice the difference around the face?
http://appaloosaphotohistoryfinder.blog ... chive.html

There are many greys out there advertised as "few spots". You have to be careful if you are buying a few spot to check the sire and dam and be sure they aren't grey.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:48 pm 
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Jorge, I hope this works. From Photobucket.
Image
And this:
Image

To me, this is a classic varnish roan. She does have a very few black spots on what would have been her blanket when she was younger.

These pictures are from three years ago, and she's much whiter now.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:52 am 
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Dear All,

Really amazed with your great responses and references. Makes one wonder if the individual traits that makes the appaloosa phenotype are already within the breed waiting to be assembled. One has to remember that for more than two centuries the Thoroughbred breed didn't witnessed a white Thoroughbred and even connoisseurs like Federico Tesio thought to be impossible. But you see today, how relatively easy is to propitiate the appearance of sabino-based white Thoroughbreds. Most probably, the same may apply to the appearance of an appaloosa Thoroughbred. Who knows how willl it happen. For example, see how the casual and normal appearance of a brindle horse like Catch A Bird inexplicably paved the way for the appearance of classic-looking roans (Odd Colours, Red Noble, Slip Catch, Goldhill Park) among Thoroughbreds. One key element that may prove valuable is the perseverance of breeders like some of you, who write in this section. But a plannified effort is medular in order to avoid the limbo situation happening right now with the roan descendants of Catch A Bird. Thanks to all of you who participate here.

Thanks again for those wonderful links and photos.

All the Best,


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:05 pm 
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Nope, Lp is dominant and one parent has to carry it for the foal to have it. In addition the pattern genes are inherited separately from Lp so the patterned horse may get a pattern from a solid parent and Lp from the other which allows the pattern to be expressed (which is how crop outs occur). There never has been any Lp marked horses known in TBs.

Here are albums which show my old appy going from dark with sort of a blanket to complete varnish roan.
http://pets.webshots.com/album/207159798YaaxAu

Image


http://pets.webshots.com/album/261014155aYiYyS

Image

He was a foundation bred app and is probably a good example going by Lewis and Clark's description of what the original apps were like. Not all have rat tails!!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:14 pm 
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I bred Appys at one time and there were definite lines which would regularly produce leopard or few spot patterns. Few spots had all the modifiers and would produce color in every foal, as did snow cap blankets. An example was Prince's Jim, who I bred to several times and got leopard or near leopard foals. He was a few spot, with only a few spots on one shoulder. He was a son of Prince Plaudit who was also a very good color producer. My best mare roaned out to a leopard after starting as a blanketed filly when I bought her. The spots never did fade from their dark bay color, however she did fade to a real leopard, with spots on her rump, shoulders and loins. She produced leopards, near leopards and a snowcap foal. The loss of color in an Appaloosa is due to a different gene than grey. Some do not lose the spot color as they age, such as my mare, while they do lose the main body color. Others do have the typical grey gene and simply become greys. They have a grey parent.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:33 am 
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I too am lucky enough to breed apps.
I have a very interesting colt at the moment who was born the weirdest 'almost purple' colour... Hence his stable name is Rhubarb. he is homozygous black, and his colour is changing very dramatically.. you can see him here.. click on the foal link. Will update the pic so you can see the difference when he has finished dropping his foal coat.
http://www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:17 am 
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Jorge,

There are currently two theories about Appy colors. The old school believes that there is one gene complex that results in the pattern plus the rat tail, and roaning. The appy complex is like gray, one parent must be appy for the pattern to appear, and "cropouts" are caused by fraud or fence jumping.

That perhaps is a bit overstated, but pretty much states the case.

The newer view is that there are at least two separate genes involved. LP which is the eyes, striped hooves, roaning, rattail, and odd spotting on the face. The patterns, blanket, and leopard are different genes on a chromosome not related to LP, and so a horse can carry just LP (Appy roans) or just the Pattern (solid horse) it takes the combination of both LP and Pattern to produce a leopard, or blanket. True fewspots carry two copies of LP, so they always produce some color.

Given that the pattern gene does not express unless LP is present, then the "hidden" pattern genes aren't selected for or against, and may be present in a whole range of breeds.

"Cropouts" or Unexpected Appys by this theory are what happens when a LP carrying horse meets a solid horse (no LP) that carries the Pattern.


The two gene theory is being embraced ( in my observation) by folks what have some understanding of genetics.

And a perfect example of another two gene color is Bay. Hidden on red based horses, the Agouti gene only "lights up" when the horse has at least one copy of the black base coat.

Anyone interested in keeping up with the research might want to take a look at The Appaloosa Project
http://www.appaloosaproject.info/index. ... sition=5:5

There are some very interesting discoveries that haven't been published yet, so I'm not comfortable in sharing.

As for LP being present in other breeds, there is the case of Mesaoud the Spotted Wonder, and pure Arabian stallion that exhibited minimal expression of LP. I've seen photos of a modern descendant that clearly had the white eye, but since it was a head shot was impossible to tell if there were other characteristics.

He's on the allbreed site, with a pretty good photo and article.


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