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Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:28 pm
by accphotography
I believe the evidence that those theories are correct is irrefutable.
As far as "cropout" appys, they have happened in numerous breeds including AQHA and some Warmbloods.
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:56 pm
by xfactor fan
Yeah, I'm firmly in the two gene camp, but that doesn't change the fact that a number of appy breeders are firmly on the one gene side of the issue.
For those interested in "crop outs" the allbreed forum has a research topic, and you could look down the list for "Remic in Spots" A crop out appy out of two solid QH's.
What I find interesting is that the same type of blanket/bay has shown up on Remic in Spots, Wapati, and Colida. All three unexpected appys. If the Appaloosa project folks are correct and that the size and type of the blanket is inherited, then this might indicate that there is blanket pattern is pretty well distributed through the AQHA gene pool. Which of course makes the QH folks crazy.
As for TB's does anyone have the experience of breeding LP only horses to TB's and getting a small lacy pattern? Over the years I've seen folks complaining about this TB type blanket, usually with the idea that breeding to TB's is ruining the Appaloosa breed. However, it might be a sign that some TB's carry this style of Pattern, but don't have the LP gene to light it up.
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:46 pm
by RiddleMeThis
xfactor fan wrote:A crop out appy out of two solid QH's.
His dam has no "spots" per say, but she most definitely has LP
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:27 pm
by accphotography
I agree it sounds like TBs may carry a small PATN gene.
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:03 pm
by xfactor fan
Great photo of REMINIC IN SPOTs' dam. If memory serves, she roaned out late, and looked a whole lot more solid when REMINIC was born.
Sort of odd, the mare spotted late, is listed as a bay roan, but has no other roans in the direct line of family. Daddy was sorrel, Mama bay. So one of these clearly is a minimal LP carrier. Roan is one of those if you got it you display it kind of genes.
Much frothing at the mouth and gnashing of teeth over this one.
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:58 pm
by Linda_d
From the picture, I'd call RIS's dam a varnished roan Appaloosa, but I don't believe she was anywhere near as colored out when RIS was foaled as she is now.
I think the discussion of this mare on the All Breed site indicated that this mare didn't "color" out until she was several years old, so she was legitimately registered with the AQHA. Because of her age, and the age of her sire and dam, there's no way to determine if they were who the registration papers say they were. I think that somebody somewhere along the line (and that could be going back to the early days of the AQHA) registered a horse with Lp, most likely because the horse didn't display any obvious Lp characteristics at first. Was it fraud? Probably, but it could have just been an error. Somebody in 1947 had a nice 2 year old QH type filly by a registered AQHA stallion out of an unregistered mare. He took the time and money needed to get the filly registered but by the time she turned 7, after having 3 foals, she started looking seriously like a varnished roan Appy. Oops.
It seems that Appys, or at least many Appys, carry another gene (or genes) that somehow control(s) when varnish roaning (and perhaps other patterns as well) show up -- and for some horses, that seems to be later than for most.
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:31 pm
by Jorge
xfactor fan wrote:Jorge,
There are currently two theories about Appy colors. The old school believes that there is one gene complex that results in the pattern plus the rat tail, and roaning. The appy complex is like gray, one parent must be appy for the pattern to appear, and "cropouts" are caused by fraud or fence jumping.
That perhaps is a bit overstated, but pretty much states the case.
The newer view is that there are at least two separate genes involved. LP which is the eyes, striped hooves, roaning, rattail, and odd spotting on the face. The patterns, blanket, and leopard are different genes on a chromosome not related to LP, and so a horse can carry just LP (Appy roans) or just the Pattern (solid horse) it takes the combination of both LP and Pattern to produce a leopard, or blanket. True fewspots carry two copies of LP, so they always produce some color.
Given that the pattern gene does not express unless LP is present, then the "hidden" pattern genes aren't selected for or against, and may be present in a whole range of breeds.
"Cropouts" or Unexpected Appys by this theory are what happens when a LP carrying horse meets a solid horse (no LP) that carries the Pattern.
The two gene theory is being embraced ( in my observation) by folks what have some understanding of genetics.
And a perfect example of another two gene color is Bay. Hidden on red based horses, the Agouti gene only "lights up" when the horse has at least one copy of the black base coat.
Anyone interested in keeping up with the research might want to take a look at The Appaloosa Project
http://www.appaloosaproject.info/index. ... sition=5:5There are some very interesting discoveries that haven't been published yet, so I'm not comfortable in sharing.
As for LP being present in other breeds, there is the case of Mesaoud the Spotted Wonder, and pure Arabian stallion that exhibited minimal expression of LP. I've seen photos of a modern descendant that clearly had the white eye, but since it was a head shot was impossible to tell if there were other characteristics.
He's on the allbreed site, with a pretty good photo and article.
Dear xfactor fan,
Thank you so much for sharing those valuable comments. Can you add more on your comments and include the latest news on this subject. Great!
All the Best,
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:56 pm
by belambi
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:26 pm
by Jorge
Thank you so very much for that valuable and interesting reference. Wow!