are we all using the same definition for black?

[springboro]

it occurs to me that perhaps there are differnt definitions of the color black. I'll say what I believe to be black, and you all can see if we're all on the same page.

Black: The entire coat of the horse is black, including the muzzle, the flanks, the mane, tail and legs, unless white markings are present.

So i have to ask... when people say that their horses are tested for being homozygous, those horses have to be black, right?

I keep seeing what I would call Dark bay horses being called black.

I was taught that if there was a brown nose, it's bay.

We all agree?

[RiddleMeThis]

We all agree?

Not quite and heres why...

So i have to ask... when people say that their horses are tested for being homozygous, those horses have to be black, right?

Not necessarily. Black is just a base color. A bay horse can be homozygous for black. So can a buckskin. Homozygous for black just means that they cant produce a chestnut foal.

I was taught that if there was a brown nose, it's bay.

A lot of the time this is true, however it is NOT always true. I know of many horses who test either Ee aa or EE aa with no other dilutions, thus they are black yet have brown muzzles. Ill see if I can dig some up for you.

ETA:Not exactly a brown nose but this one is tested black

[xfactor fan]

Given that there are two independent sets of gene involved calling a horse homozygous without defining what they are homozygus for doesn't include enought information.

A horse that is EE (two copies of the black base coat) will never produce a red based foal. HOWEVER what color they are depends on that is going on over at the Agouti gene.

There are at least four versions, and there are not tests for all four versions.
The horse could be Bay, Wild bay, Dark Brown/Bay, Brown, fading Black, or Black.

Without accurates test for all the variations it is impossible to figure out what is going on.

[springboro]

thanks for the genetics lesson!

However, my definition is the Jockey Club definition, and since we're addressing TB horses which are JC registered, don't you think it would be best if we all use THAT official definition?

discuss amongst yourselves. This is probably why someone keeps going back into the database and switching horses which are registered as Dark Bay to Black.

For the record, I'm happy with the general expression near-black which was always used for Sunday Silence.

[RiddleMeThis]

don't you think it would be best if we all use THAT official definition?

IMO no I dont because imo its wrong, just as its wrong to call a cremello a palomino.

[SouthernStar]

Technically a black horse is one that is either EE or Ee with NO agouti gene. Looking at horse adds over the years I see that 99% of the horses listed as black are actually bay which is REALLY frustrating. I have a couple of mares that are EE Aa and they might look pretty black, but they are bay. So, now before buying any horse I would just have it tested. As far as JC registration I would think there should be a better way to have the correct colors listed.

[springboro]

Outside of the whole cremello arguement, I think the Jockey Club does a pretty good job of its definitions.

A TRUE black TB is incredibly hard to find, and I argue that there are not many black at stud.

List the black TB stallions, anyone? Sunday Silence does not count.. he's a near-black dark bay. Sorry

[summerhorse]

Sunday was most likely a true black. Halo was also. What Luck. Sanctuary. Painted Desert's other black Halo stallion, blanking on his name!! I've seen quite a few black stallions but GOOD black stallions those are a bit harder to find...

Chapel Royal and Songster look black but on closeup they appear seal brown.

On some horses you would have to test them genetically to be sure.

[RiddleMeThis]

You also have Genuine

[Sunday Silence]

A's

Ada Martin 1924 filly (Orpheus x Fanvilla)
Air Post 1938 filly (Ariel x Posted, by Swift and Sure)
Alan F. 1940 colt (Jock x Agnes Ayers)
Al Aswed 1980 colt (What Luck x Lov Tov)
Alchimist 1930 colt (Herold x Aversion, by Nuage)
Aletta 1947 filly (Boss Hoss x The End, by Golden Broom)
Allegoric 2001 colt (
Al O'Wishus 1998 gelding (Norquestor x Holiday Holly)
Anglia 1998 colt
Another Lass 1936 filly (Perchance x Lipan Lass)
Arab Somers 1980 geld (Will Somers x Arabella)
Ariel 1925 colt (Eternal x Adana, by Adam)
Arp 1989 gelding
Arrangement 1964 filly (Intentionally x Floral Girl, by Noble Hero)
As The Raven Flies 2006 filly (Songandaprayer x Little Tom Cat)
Aussie 1940 geld (Haste x Andria, by Jock)
Aye Aye 1943 filly (Man O' War x Waterford, by Sickle)



B's

Baby's Breath 1935 filly (Sickle x Bana Kenny, by Black Servant)
Bad Seed 1969 filly (Stevward x Rich and Rare, by Rockefella)
Balking 1935 filly (Balko x Bogega, by Coventry)
Balko 1925 colt (Omar Khayyam x Rahu)
Balladier 1932 colt (Black Toney x Blue Warbler)
Baril de Poudre 1999 gelding (Saumarez x Ginestra)
Bastogne 1944 colt (Sky Raider x Tenez, by Friar Rock)
Belle de Black 1984 filly (Verbatim x Belle Noire)
Best Be Quick 1973 colt (Kaskaskia x Kankakee Miss)
Bett Ohio 1983 colt (?)
B. Invisible (Don B. x Olympaid)
Bird Woman 1938 filly (Balladier x Yellow Flag, by American Flag)
Birkhan 1945 colt (?)
Birthday Party 1946 filly (Balladier x Mixed Party, by Strolling Player)
Black Beauty 1950 filly (Bless Me x June Bee, by Jean Valjean)
Black Cross 2006 colt (Storm Day x Unfounded Luck)
Black Gang 1941 colt (War Admiral x Baby's Breath, by Sickle)
Black Gold 1921 colt (Black Toney x Useeit, by Bonnie Joe)
Black Intent ?
Black Jet 2000 colt
Blacklord Falkhan
Black Mackee 1976 colt
Black Mammy 1927 filly
Black Maria 1923 filly
Black Poison 2001 filly
Black Princess 1985 filly
Black Satin 1974 filly
Black Servent 1918 colt
Black Suit 2002 gelding
Black Tuxedo 1996 colt
Black Wave 1935 filly
Board Elligible 2000 filly
Bob Dot Bob 2005 geld
Boca Chica 1932 filly (Boniface x Boca Grande by Hourless)
Boca Grande 1927 f (Hourless x Captiva by Brown Prince II)
Bodega 1928 filly
Bodgit Be True 2001 geld (Captain Bodgit x Tru Returns)
Bolero's A-Go-Go 1964 filly
Bostonian 1924 colt
Bridal Colors 1931 filly
Broomflight 1947 filly
Buffalo Beau 1983 colt
Bulldoze 1999 colt (Holy Bull x Viva Girl)
Burlington 1887 colt
Bushwon 1993 colt
Busanda 1947 filly
Butler 1942 geld (Halcyon x Agnes Ayers)





C's

Carr 1995 colt
Check By Check 1999 gelding
Chief's Tide 1990 colt
Chuckling Charly 1980 colt
Chollie One 2003 colt
Chryseiss 1933 filly
Confederacy 1950 filly
Conventry 1922 colt
Coup de Kas 1976 colt
Cousin Paul? 2003 colt? died April 2006
Crunch The Numbers? 2002 colt




D's

Darby Dale 1972 colt
Darkie 1889 filly
Dark Rock Star 1978 colt
Dazzelin Deception 1989 filly
Deerview Lady 2001 filly
De Leonardi 2004 gelding
Derby Day Hope 2000 gelding
Desert Mirage 1941 filly (Cohort x Airegla)
Devil Adoria 2001 filly
Devil's Cry 1987 colt
Devil's Dervish 1997 filly
D.G. Black Jack 2003 colt (Commanchero x Sarah's Dancer)
Dina Paidoff 1991 filly
Dolette 1931 filly(St. Germans x Bessie by Charles O'Malley)
Double Plus 1983 filly
Doyourthing 1995 filly
Dusty Lin 1971 filly




E's
Ebony Strike, AUS '02 (Octagonal x Catchfire)
Eight Carat 1975 filly
Eight Grand 2001 filly
Eight Of Spades, AUS '00 (Octagonal x Hakone)
Ellbee's Choice 2006 colt (Slewdledo x One East End)
Emmons Courner
Ens Alwojood 1995 filly
Erhaab 1991 colt




F's

Farfalina 2001 filly (Old Trieste x Ava Knowsthecode)
Fastness 1976 filly
Favo 1894 filly (Tristan x Favora)
Favora 1888 filly (Himyar x Favoress)
Fine Envoy 1978 filly (Envoy x Topola)
The Finn 1912 colt
Floral Girl 1954 filly
Flying Ebony 1925 colt
Fortissima
Fricka 2003 filly (Southern Halo x La Valkiria)
Frontier Deputy 2004 colt
Firle 1938 filly
Fuji Kiseki 1992 colt
Full Dress 1927 colt


G's

Gail Jay 1945 filly
Gallant Ruler 2003 colt
Gemologist 1998 colt
George Smith 1912 colt
Gentle Song 1979 filly
Giant Servant 1940 colt (Giant Killer x Alservant)
Glenmayne 1970 colt
Golden Metal 1999 gelding
Grande Dame 1935 filly (Frisius x Boca Grande by Hourless)
Grande Pat 1945 gelding (Stand Pat x Boca Grande)
Granny Lation 1959 filly
Greek Onyx 1994 filly




H's

Halma 1895 colt
Haughty 1961 filly
Haunting Melody 1995 filly
Heleniade 1999 filly by Entrepeneur
Helios Quercus 2002 colt
Herold 1917 colt
High Pries 1965 filly
Hour Glass 1909 filly
Hourless 1914 colt


I's
Ice Veins 2006 filly by Stormy Jack
Identical 1975 colt? (Verbatim x Bully's Girl)
Ides Of March 1950 filly
Igor 1999 colt--still in training
Illustrative 1973 filly
Imp 1894 filly
Impromptu 1916 colt
Inquizador 2001 colt
Intentionally 1956 colt
Internet Boy 1999 gelding
Irish Bird 1970 filly
Isn't She Lovely 1994 filly
Isasure 2004 filly (Daliapour x Logica, by Priolo)


J's

Just Cindy 1959 filly
Just Gabi 2000 filly

[Sunday Silence]

N-Q


N's

Nadal? 2003 colt
Naughty Nedra 1965 filly
Neckar 1948 colt
New York Cafe 2002 colt
Nishino Hermione 2000 filly
Noircir 1993 (Bureaucracy ex Philomoss)
Noosa 2001 filly
Nun Other 1993 filly (Emmons Corner x Lila Ann)



O's

Odalisque 1959 filly
Old Dark
Onebridle 2001 gelding (Commanchero x Linenfild)
Onyxly 1981 colt
Orphan Running 2002 gelding (Night Running x Latifia)
Our Tribe 1956 filly
Out Of Ashes 2003 filly

P's

Pacificbounty 1994 colt
Pacific Heights
Painting Shadows 2004 filly
Paolita 1940 filly (North Wales II x Boca Grande by Hourless)
Patelin 1968 filly
Pay 1974 filly
Pepper Lantis 1986 filly
Perfectly Requested
Petit Calva 2001 filly (Desert King x Jimkana)
Pine Comb 1941 filly(North Wales II x Boca Grande )
Potente 2004 colt
Prenez Garde 1949 filly
Presently 1989 gelding
Price Level 1942 filly Sickle x Anchors Ahead
Princekal 2003 colt
Prince Of Praise 1988 colt
Prince Stanley 1985 colt
Private Thoughts 1977 colt
Princess Mary 1917 filly
Pura 2002 (Buriton x Scottish Lullaby)
Pywacket 1965 filly

Q's

Ouendom 1997 filly
Quickly 1930 filly

[Sunday Silence]

R-S


R's

Race Carr 2003 colt
Rain Shadow 1967 filly
Relic 1945 colt
Relko 1960 colt
Remember Dream 2002 filly (Jade Robbery x Running Heroine)
Reply N Aces '00 filly (Wood Reply x Mags Ace)
Rich Preserve 1961 filly
Richwood 1995 colt
Rienzi 1983
R Socialbutterfly 2004 filly (New Regime x Jenny Bug, by Momsfurrari)
Rootintootinshoot 2002 filly
Rosebud 1998 filly
Royal Hitter 1977 colt (Bold Hitter x Exchanged Princess)
Royal Maiden 1941 filly
Rukn 2004 colt (Munir x Jimkana) died 2007

S's

Satan's Sting 1981 colt
Saunterer 1854 colt
Schoolboy 2004 colt
Semi Lost 2001 gelding
Ship Of War 1942 filly
Silk Domaine, AUS '02 (Octagonal x Balmaine)
Sir Hercules 1825 colt
Six Perfections 2000 filly
Sky Raider 1938 colt
Smolensko 1810 colt
Sno Problem 1999 filly
So Blessed 1965 colt
Soldier's Bid 2000 gelding
Song Of Wings 2003 colt
Songster 2003 colt
Sonic 1948 colt
Sophie's Song 1999 filly
Sorcerer 1796 colt
Speed To Spare 1933 gelding
Speed Wagon 2003 filly
Split Second 1935 filly
Stalitahem 1947 filly (Stand Pat x Paolita by North Wales II)
Stanic 2001 colt
Star Of Kuwait 1968 gelding
Star Shell 1992 colt
Stylus 2002 colt
Sundeck 2000 colt
Sun Queen 1909 filly
Suzuka Dream 2000 colt
Swag's Ultima 2001 geld (Just a Swangin x Sabu Rolfe)
Sweet Verbena 1926 filly
Swinging Door 1937 colt

[Sunday Silence]

T-Z


T's

Tamarra 2003 filly
Tannhauser 1994 colt (Southern Halo x La Valkiria)
Teleran 1954 filly
Tellaris 1947 filly
Three Mysteries 2001 filly
Tiepolleto 1956 filly
Tippy's Morningstar 1998 filly
Touched An Angel 1999 filly
Trappezoid 1994 gelding
Triennale 2003 filly War (Chant x Tresoriere)
Triple Dee 2000 gelding
True Picture 1955 filly
Trumpator 1782 colt


U's

U-Boat 1935 filly
Unbreakable 1935 colt
Unbridled Black - 2006 black colt (Storm Day x Unfounded Luck)
Unusual Presence 2003 filly


V's

Valdina Host 1939 colt
Valentine 2002 filly (Lion Hearted x Hearts)
Variety Road 1984 colt (Private Thoughts x Prom Shoes)
Venusino 1994 colt (Southern Halo x Other Star)
Vicar 1931 colt (Flying Ebony x Valkyr)


W's

Waddle 1958 colt
Wandel 1993 filly (Fitzcarraldo x La Brujula)
War Dove 1956 filly (War Doe x Paolita by North Wales II)
Warlita 1954 filly (War Doe x Paolita by North Wales II)
War Peril 1935 colt
Warring Lady 1935 filly
Western Wolf 1990 gelding
What Luck 1967 colt
Winter Land 1949 filly


X's


Y's

Yellow Creek 1989 filly 25 (4-2-5) $24,421


Z's

Zaltowna 1938 filly (Town Guard x Alness)
Zuppardo's Love 1981 colt? 88 (16-11-7) $338,197

[Sunday Silence]

[quote="springboro"]Outside of the whole cremello arguement, I think the Jockey Club does a pretty good job of its definitions.

A TRUE black TB is incredibly hard to find, and I argue that there are not many black at stud.

List the black TB stallions, anyone? Sunday Silence does not count.. he's a near-black dark bay. Sorry[/quote]

People who saw him race in the flesh said he was definitely black.

Songster is registered black, Chapel Royal is not.

Devil His Due is a true black but was registered dark bay.

[Sunday Silence]

An example of a very black horse:

http://www.sapphirefarms.com/OO1368-SCO ... 2008-R.jpg