Colored TBs in Europe

[Jorge]

Dear Nessa,

These are the derived facts: the baby was foaled from two bay equines, her alleged dam had a blank space for 1914, and had an acceptable age during the year 1914, but according to the GSB information available until now, her first foal didn't came until 3 years later. Why her alleged first foal was registered so late is also a mystery. What I would really like to find is a note from those years reporting a rare occurrence.

[angrovestud]

Hi reedhill
I am so glad you like the history! i love your web site, and your stallion what amazing children, he has had, your must be so pleased with them i like the one you have for sale he will make such a nice horse.



Jorge I am going to ask My friend John Day about this middleton horse the missing white 1914 and see if he know anyone who would know about it, My darling Hubby know the current lord middleton met him at dinner parties and house parties on several occasions so we try our best!

[summerhorse]

It was very difficult to get an off color horse registered before DNA and it is possible if not probable that the owner either just didn't want to bother trying or was denied. Or maybe the foal wasn't good enough to go to the bother of pressing the issue. Thus no registration, thus no records for us now. There shouldn't be any unregistered horses in the PQ database. Her following empty years could have been for any number of reasons. More off colored foals, barren, aborted, foal died, etc. etc. etc.

[reedhill]

MANY MANY THANKS ANGROVESTUD!

[Jorge]

Dear Angrovestud,

Jorge I am going to ask My friend John Day about this middleton horse the missing white 1914 and see if he know anyone who would know about it, My darling Hubby know the current lord middleton met him at dinner parties and house parties on several occasions so we try our best!

Thank you so much for the potential valuable assistance.
All the Best,

[TrueColours]

Well - there are going to be a bunch more coloured TB's in the UK once my lot gets over there!

Remember My Name (palomino & white), Dodge's Snow Bird (bay & white) and Nightlight (smoky black & white) arrive in 2009
Puchi Trap (bay & white), Pearlescent (perlino) and Guaranteed Gold (cremello) arrive in 2010
Faux Finish (buckskin & white) arrives in 2011

Plus the foals that my mares will be carrying as well, so there should be a terrific influx of quality coloured foals being born in the UK in the next 2++ years!

[angrovestud]

We do have quiet a few quality warmblood cremmellos in the UK already. you only need to look at the Add horse site =stallions on line! so it will add to the list of cremmello producers, being TB will be different and there is of course, I was framed and his 2 or 3 sons who will presumably be standing at stud, then their is Electrum TB who is the First Cremmello to be in the UK then there are the sabino carriers who have not been identified as such IE Tonno identified (Pancake)this is because of ignorance and prejudice within the racing fraternatity in the UK as they hate colour even socks are not desrirable according to two top breeders I have spoken to recently
we are fighting this by the start of the coloured thoroughbred breeders assocation which we formed two years ago to help promote the breeding and racing of the coloured TB and Coloured TB part bred which can both race in the UK we would like to educate people about the genetics and bloodline of these special horses and start a racing found cash for the first coloured racehorse winner!
we have met trainers who think you can not even breed a coloured racehorse!
we all know that not to be true!
which brings me back to the painting of Sawrey gilpin which appears to be Tobiano with the white on the upper part of the body maybe a sabino carrier but certainly not a FO.
Jorge you did find a suspected french tobiano Valency .and according to Sir John Miller the Queens equerry whom I met in 1991 at the British Equestrian centre at the very first coloured show to be held in the UK he told me that the british Aristocracy owned and bred hightly coloured horse that were hightly desirable and they even raced them.
The coloured horse had been used as a decorative horse for teams of carraige horses and was used on the outside lead and flashy ladies used them as riding horses,until the gypseys over here started borrowing stallions in the night! and that is where the trouble with the coloured horse began over here, they were then banned from most british breed societys, as they were then tarnished as common, how sad but true.

[Lucy]

There shouldn't be any unregistered horses in the PQ database.

This quote bears repeating, hilighting, stamping across everyone's monitors in gold, etc.

Thank you.

[angrovestud]

Jorge
So far I have searched the Weatherbys bloodstock reports as I am a member with a Registered 3/4 TB that can breed national hunt stock to race he is in the Current Weatherbys National Hunt stallion Book 2009 I have found that;
In 1914 the mare called Ladylike II in foaled in 1914 and is of unknown breeding no mention of a sire or a dam. she foaled herself in 1934 a filly called LadyLoch by Loch Lomond. she was 20 when she had her first and only foal.
I have also found the Grand Geraldine did in fact have a foal in 1914 she had a filly called Geraldina by Dinneford I have taken the liberty of adding her to the PQ database as she is reg with Weatherbys.
by the way there is no record for a mare called Ladylike II born in 1891 no such horse exsists

More fun research
from your earlier post here is what I have found from Weatherbys.
Bairgen Briac (brown or black mare 1905) / brown colt by Benvenuto. NOT REG with weatherbys
Fair Geraldine (bay mare 1901) / bay filly by Crathorne. NOT REG
Fair Gertrude (bay mare 1907) / her first foal delivered in 1917. NOT REG
Gateshead (chestnut mare 1910) / her first foal delivered in 1917. NOT REG
Grand Geraldine (brown or black mare 1905) / no report in 1914. ( 1 filly foal Geraldina she had no foals I have checked back till 1934 as reported before)
Lady Fern (brown mare 1904) / barren to Wales. REG and by Hippdrome
Ladylike II (brown mare 1891) / her last foal was delivered in 1913. this mare was born in 1914 and bred a foal in 1934 Lady Loch
Lady Modena (brown mare 1907) / mare died in 1912. NOT REG
Lapwing II (chestnut mare 1893) / barren to Jovial. there is a lapwing reg in 1943 and non around the dates mentioned
Larky II (bay mare 1895) / dead bay colt by Jovial. NOT REG
Laurel (chestnut mare 1911) / her first foal was delivered in 1915. there is a Laurel born in 1924 Unknown -Unknown
Modwena (bay mare 1905) / barren to Birk Gill. 2 bred 1 in 1937- and 1940
Moyra (chestnut mare 1901) / bay filly by Jovial. one called Moyra born 1976

During the same period his mares were covered by the following 13 sires:

Benvenuto (brown h 1888) not reg
Birk Gill (chestnut h 1903) not reg
Black Spot (bay h 1904) not reg
Crathorne (brown h 1903) by Unknown- Unknown
Jovial (bay h 1904) by Unknown - Unknown
Orby (chestnut h 1904) By orme-Rhoda b
Proudridge (bay h 1906) not reg
Scotch Sign (bay h 1903) not reg
Sir Harry (chestnut h 1905) by unknown - unknown
Stickup (bay h 1904) not reg
Tantamount (bay or brown h 1912) by unknown - unknown
The Gull (chestnut h 1902) not reg
Wales (chestnut h 1894) Belgrave-victoria
thats me finnished

[angrovestud]

We think that lord middleton has bred these horses to hunt some may have raced but as we have the famous middleton hunt in Yorkshire i suspect this is why there are so many unregistered horses there is no mention on any history racing english sites of lord middleton and or his racehorses that we have come across yet

[BlazingColours]

intersting thread... Some great info guys, thanks!

[Lucy]

When it comes to records that old, take Weatherby's - and Equineline, for that matter - with a grain of salt. If you want definite answers about a 1914 foal, you need to find the appropriate copy of the General Stud Book.

As ill-luck would have it, I have the one that covers 1909-1913. But a lot of the mares & stallions you couldn't find in Weatherby's are listed in it.

[Jorge]

Dear Angrovestud,

All the aforecited broodmare records on my previous threads were painstakingly researched by various valuable collaborators, page by page (hundreds of pages), from the Volumes 22, 23 and 24 of the General Stud Book. In other words, we are dealing with official information from Weatherbys. But it is equally important to keep in mind that not all broodmare records from the early 20th century were automatically included on their computer database. On these cases you have to go volume by volume as was the case here. But I welcome and earnestly appreciate every collaboration provided.

For the benefice of all let me include the immediate pedigree of practically all the equines mentioned:

Bairgen Briac (brown or black mare 1905, The Baker--Rupee/Silver)
Fair Geraldine (bay mare 1901, Desmond--De Estella/Lord Gough)
Fair Gertrude (bay mare 1907, Red Eagle--Fair Geraldine/Desmond)
Gateshead (chestnut mare 1910, Walmsgate--Eminence/Turk's Cap)
Grand Geraldine (brown or black mare 1905, Desmond--Grand Marnier/Friar's Balsam)
Lady Fern (brown mare 1904, Red Eagle--Ladylike II/Gordon)
Ladylike II (brown mare 1891, Gordon--Laverock/King Harold)
Lady Modena (brown mare 1907, Wales--Madame Madjeska/Gordon)
Lapwing II (chestnut mare 1893, Gordon--Laverock/King Harold)
Larky II (bay mare 1895, Gordon--Laverock/King Harold)
Laurel (chestnut mare 1911, Black Spot--Larky II/Gordon)
Modwena (bay mare 1905, Wales--Madame Modjeska/Gordon)
Moyra (chestnut mare 1901, Red Eagle--Madame Modjeska)

During the same period his mares were covered by the following 13 sires:

Benvenuto (brown h 1888)
Birk Gill (chestnut h 1903, Marcion--Frisky/Esterling)
Black Spot (bay h 1904)
Crathorne (brown h 1903, Donovan--Lady Lena/Cylinder)
Jovial (bay h 1904, Bay Ronald--Merry Miser/The Miser)
Orby (chestnut h 1904)
Proudridge (bay h 1906, Pride--Penkridge/Zealot)
Scotch Sign (bay h 1903, Ayrshire--Marken/Ocean Wave)
Sir Harry (chestnut h 1905, Sliman--Shocking/Kendal)
Stickup (bay h 1904)
Tantamount (bay or brown h 1912, Dark Ronald--Raindrop/Florizel)
The Gull (chestnut h 1902)
Wales (chestnut h 1894, Belgrave--Victoria/Walter)

Thanks for your valuable assistance and wish to assist.

All the Best,

[Jorge]

Here the missing ones:

Benvenuto (brown h 1888, Galopin—Queen of Diamonds/King of Trumps)
Black Spot (bay h 1904, Black Sand—Word of Honour/Saraband)
Orby (chestnut h 1904, Orme—Rhoda B./Hanover)
Stickup (bay h 1904, Collar—Wafer II/Kendal)
The Gull (chestnut h 1902, Gallinule—Meddlesome/St. Gatien)

[Jorge]

Unless Lord Middleton had another unconspicuous bay broodmare in 1914, the possibilities are reduced to the following mares:


Fair Geraldine (bay mare 1901) / her 1914 report was a bay filly by Crathorne (brown).

Fair Gertrude (bay mare 1907) / no 1914 report for her first foal was delivered in 1917.

Larky II (bay mare 1895) / her 1914 report was a dead bay colt by Jovial (bay).

Modwena (bay mare 1905) / her 1914 report: barren to Birk Gill (but also he was a chestnut sire).


ANALYSIS: But Fair Geraldine's mate was a "brown", sire not a "bay".
Larky II produced a "dead bay colt". Modwena's mate was a chestnut sire. Only Fair Gertrude remains as a possibility and, curiously, her first reported foal was dropped somehow late at 10 years old!