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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:36 am 
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When you read through all of these threads on the new sabino's and white and dilute TB babies hitting the ground, its fun to sit back and fast forward things to 10-20-30 years down the road, when a lot of us will be out of the breeding game and retired to our beach hut in the Caribbean sipping Margarita's :wink: and selling sea shell necklaces.

Will these wildly coloured TB's that are now on the track and in the show ring and in breeding shed, become accepted as "the *new* norm" or will people look upon them still as something very special and rare and one of a kind?

Grey's still seem to hold a special allure to the betting public as well as to buyers. Will the buckskin's and palomino's be the same way a few years down the road???

I am pretty certain that I am speaking for ALL of the breeders on this board who have devoted their time and resources to breeding these beautiful coloured TB's - I know that when I hang up my breeding boots for good, I will look back with a great deal of pride and satisfaction on what I have been able to achieve in my breeding program, and what contribution I have been able to make in getting more of these beautiful and unique TB's into the genetic pool for generations to come ... :)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:13 am 
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Yes it will be neat to see them more and more in the mainstream over the next several years. They are already more accepted than they were 10 years ago, so 10,20+ years from now... I think they will be even more accepted as the *NORM*. As they become less rare I *hope* people stop sending young kids right to breeding and more end up in competition careers. I know that is what I am doing with my TB and WB kids.

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when a lot of us will be out of the breeding game and retired to our beach hut in the Caribbean sipping Margarita's and selling sea shell necklaces.

Not so sure about that though! I live and breathe horses so no way in hell will I ever be sitting by selling necklaces on some beach. :lol: Now down on a farm in CA or FL (somewhere without cold winters) I would love to sit on the side of the show ring and watch grandkids of my program competing.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:51 pm 
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Thanks Donna for bringing up this issue.

When I ponder on what it takes to a rare color to become mainstream it is important to relate to the trajectory once followed by the gray coat color.

The gray coat color was among the founders of the Thoroughbred breed but it took nearly 200 years until the appearance of a genuine top notch talented runner like champion The Tetrarch (gray H 1911) in order to catapult his phenotype into common spotlight, regardless of its coat color.

Even when this first echelon was achieved, this alone was not sufficient. It was necessary to wait until the appearance of a prepotent gray lineage of the caliber of Mahmoud (gray horse 1933) to really see effervescence on the gray color ---thanks to the many gray broodmares he produced. A couple of generations later, many good gray horses, mainly coming via good gray broodmares began tilting the scale in favor of the appearance of extraordinary gray champions like the ones we are accustomed seeing today. If you want to verify what I am saying, just go to the historical racing charts of the K-P-B participants and you will see a constant increase of so-so grays, then excellent ones, and their achievements, decade by decade. This comes as no surprise.

It is my opinion that in order for the whites, perlinos, and cremellos, to achieve top-notch standing, regardless of their color, we have to pinpoint and promote their exposure towards racing careers. Seeking to link our rare colored Thoroughbreds to the best racing lineages of the world and hoping for a Mahmoud factor to appear.

Jumping, dressage and other similar careers are really quite meritorious activities which we all should encourage with kind enthusiasm, because it is an important and necessary life support medicine. But for the sake of exponentially blossoming the endeavors of coat color breeding, in my opinion there is no shortcut but to aim directly to the top of the racing pyramid (namely, successful racing careers) and from there disseminate through the air all your phenotypical seeds (diseminate these rare coat colors) and then every step of the pyramid (all the different horse activities) will be influenced by these colors and the "maize" will grow..

Right now there is a living example that proves my point. It is the white filly YUKICHAN, recent winner of a Grade 2 Oaks race in Japan. Yukichan is a daughter of Shirayukihime, an unexpected white daughter of the perennial top-notch Japanese stallion, Sunday Silence. Since Shirayukihime was reagally bred from a meritorious racing family, she was sent to another reagally bred sire and track record holder named Kurofune to be bred. The produce was YUKICHAN. You can be sure that YUKICHAN will visit all the best breeding sheds in her country and most probably, if properly guided, her breeding influence will remain available and ready to extend for future generation. Not all our white Thoroughbreds are so blessed, but there is a good chance that YUKICHAN will promote her coat color and assist the rest of all white Thoroughbreds in exponential terms. But only God knows.

In short rare coat colors need to achieve 3 steps:

01. The appearance of an unusually good talented runner
02. The subsequent appearance of a profilic broodmare sire coming from the cited talented runner
03. The exponential appearance of many talented runners (future sires) coming from the daughters and descendants of the prolific broodmare sire.

In the meantime, we are all very proud of the extraordinary efforts breeders like you and many others are devoting to the production of rare phenotyped Thoroughbreds. Right now, we are very fortunate to witness the existance of some of the finest examples you and others are producing.


(p.s. Go Faux Finish! and go for the rest of all those very fine boulervardiers! :D :D :D )


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:14 pm 
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Jorge, that was thoroughly enjoyable.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Jorge, that was thoroughly enjoyable.


I agree so much! :)

Wow. A lot for us colour breeders to think about for sure ...

And funny you should mention Faux Finish in your post as well Jorge ... I always thought she would have made a phenomenal race horse, but she was so darned beautiful I selfishly didnt want to risk breaking her down or injuring her at all. I feel the same way with her full brother - the Remember My Name colt. I am secretly hoping that someone buys him and aims him towards a race career. The Nightlight filly from last year I dont know about - I am still not certain if she would have racing talent or not ...

Maybe I should take one of these Guaranteed Gold / Puchi Trap siblings that I feel strongly about and take them to the track myself. It certainly would be an awful lot of fun thats for sure!

Thank you again for such a splendid post Jorge. That was very enjoyable and informative to read through ... :)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:03 pm 
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Daisy wants to come to FL to live just north of her half brother. She told me so. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:43 pm 
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It is wonderful to see where we have been and where we are headed.

As for Daisy, she sent me a note and wants to come to Nevada :wink: along with Faux Finish :lol:. Ah, dreams. One day I will have such outstanding horses on my farm.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Dear Helen & Donna,

I must add a little variable to the "The Tetrarch/Mahmoud/Multi-sire" equation that it is present today, that was not present during the first half of the 20th century, and that may help shorten the years needed to witness the appearance of superior whites, cremellos and perlinos. And I really don't think is wishful thinking on my behalf, but rather factual undeniable reality.

That is, the world phenotypical dissemination (domination?) of the Northern Dancers and in lesser degree the Royal Chargers (Halos, Hail To Reason etc) may represent a real boost that may help accelerate the paradigm of coat color breeding altogether and may drag other rare coat colors into the center of the spiral.

Even provided that the cremellos and perlinos are not necessarily strains heavily attributed to Northern Dancer and Royal Charger, the fact that the ordinary 21st century Thoroughbred has evolved into an unquestionable more colorful specimen, and thus a member of a new more acceptable paradigm, it may help shorten the years needed for the catch up.

Thanks for sharing your feelings on the previous posting.

All the Best,


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:31 pm 
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Someone may have to breakdown the barrier for sporthorses first. There seems to be the feeling that sporthorse breeding lines don't make good racehorses.

Any out there breeding speed sires to sporthorse mares and racing the offspring?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:12 am 
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Interesting that you should mention this True Colours as we have already given it a great deal of thought. I believe Blazing Colours might be thinking along the same lines :D Send a few of your mares out to PROVEN racehorse sires. We choose Marquetry for obvious reasons for our first crosses, but I am sure we will be expanding our crosses in the future. Sure a $7,500. breeding fee for Marquetry is a bit higher than a regular sporthorse cross, but it's cheaper than he was when he was first at stud.
Pick better mares to start with, take into consideration pedigree's, conformation etc. not just color.
As uniquely colored thoroughbreds become more available people are going to become more particular about the horses they buy. I think it is up to us as breeders to produce better horses and prove that these horses are more than just a pretty color.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:47 am 
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If I were to pose an initial practical suggestion to coat color breeders interested in developing superior running whites, cremellos and perlinos (et als.), I would suggest trying not to get caught into the occasional temptation of producing Hulk-like Mr. Universe specimens with "quaere" running virtues but to emphasize on unquestionable athleticism. Speaking in allegoric terms, if you want to achieve racing athleticism, put in your mind trying to achieve a Greyhound rather than a Great Dane, even if that means losing the "imposing-look" (can be interpreted here as coat color, size, beauty, etc.) in the process. When I mentioned Faux Finish I was precisely thinking about her overall good athletic abilities as a head start example. It is not by chance that white Thoroughbreds have achieved better overall recognition and status as runners than the cremellos and perlinos. Who knows if there is a lot of cremellos and perlinos with extraordinary racing abilities out there, but since practically all are out of racing competition they seem to be wrongly considered by the general public and even horsemen/horsewomen as horses with no racing ability, nor worth. That false paradigm ends up hurting cremellos and perlinos a lot. In short rare coat colors ought to be exposed to racing for the sake of their own benefice and survival.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:51 am 
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Jorge wrote:
(can be interpreted here as coat color,


(coat color particular expression that is)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:03 am 
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The idea of focusing on successful runners like Marquetry is a pivotal proposition in the right direction. Alas Storm Cat has been retired from ordinary stud duties for he was a proven sabino sire, capable of producing even in one turn at the bat a coat color white cornerstone.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:09 am 
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Interesting thoughts Jorge in your first post. You have taken it too far in your last post... I can appreciate and understand where you are coming from I do not agree at all.

Jorge wrote:
I would suggest trying not to get caught into the occasional temptation of producing Hulk-like Mr. Universe specimens with "quaere" running virtues but to emphasize on unquestionable athleticism. Speaking in allegoric terms, if you want to achieve racing athleticism, put in your mind trying to achieve a Greyhound rather than a Great Dane, even if that means losing the "imposing-look" (can be interpreted here as coat color, size, beauty, etc.) in the process. It is not by chance that white Thoroughbreds have achieved better overall recognition and status as runners than the cremellos and perlinos. Who knows if there is a lot of cremellos and perlinos with extraordinary racing abilities out there, but since practically all are out of racing competition they seem to be wrongly considered by the general public and even horsemen/horsewomen as horses with no racing ability, nor worth. That false paradigm ends up hurting cremellos and perlinos a lot. In short rare coat colors ought to be exposed to racing for the sake of their own benefice and survival.


Racing is not the only way to determine a Thoroughbreds value/worth and in your words that ""they ought to be exposed to racing for the sake of their own benefice and survival."" That is going wayyy to far, IMO. The show world is just as important as the racing world, and they are two different worlds! I have 5 cremello’s and 2 perlino’s (the most of any breeder/owner in the world) and they are bred from performance lines in show horses and that is where their careers are heading. They are bred for conformation, gaits, temperament and yes... beauty, colour and size. I am also into racing and have race horses running as well as in the breeding shed. So I am very familiar with both WORLDS. They are two different worlds and horses bred for each are quite different. The first Thoroughbred that comes to mind and is WOLRD FAMOUS from his show jumping career is Gem Twist and grey too. ;) I cannot think of any cremello or perlino that are Hulk like or Mr Universe :lol: No sporthorse /Thoroughbred breeder is going to stop breeding for conformation, gaits, temperament and yes... beauty, colour and size in hopes of getting a great race horse from lines that do not stem from racing. That is just ridiculous to think anyone would do such a thing.

Faux Finish is a nice mare. She has conformation, colour, beauty and is farrrr from a Greyhound
Jorge wrote:
When I mentioned Faux Finish I was precisely thinking about her overall good athletic abilities as a head start example.
What has she done that makes you think that? She was bred as a show horse and has only been a show horse. Never has she been in any speed events. Athletic ability cannot be judged by photos alone. She is an example of a nice hunter not a race horse...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:12 am 
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Let me add an additional comment on the merits of The Tetrarch that surely helped him boost his achievements on the track. This may help us apply the example towards whites, cremellos and perlinos.

Although his gray sire, Roi Herode, was a good winner, it was the talented Classic winner, Bona Vista, his broodmare sire, the one who provided The Tetrarch with the extraordinary kick to excel the way he did, winning all his 7 lifetime races. In other words, The Tetrarch's link with a proven racing broodmare lineage helped him catapult his coat color by extension towards sucess.

The same happened with Mahmoud who was a Classic winner himself in track record time (stood for 4 decades!) but who was the grandson of Gainsborough, an excellent sire and broodmare sire. Again, a decent gray pedigree being enhanced by a superior broodmare sire. Once Mahmoud was there with his myriad of good prolific daughters, it was a matter of a short time for the good gray superior horses to appear and go with their color to disseminate gray-ness around the world.

Extrapolating with white Thoroughbreds, note that some of the places where these white Thoroughbreds are excelling (places like Japan and Australia) their interest is basically focused on running their horses rather than showing them on other disciplines. This has an advantage and a disadvantage (reason for which I applaud the efforts of our coat color breeders to maintain our rare coat colors alive).

The advantage is that they are forced to produce talented runners in order to survive and they do. The disadvantage is that if you don't have success at the track, such coat color is doomed for indifference and extintion. The best known example of the latter is the struggling status being suffered by the (alleged genuine genotypical) "roans" descending from the "sui-generis" brindle Thoroughbred, recently deceased, Catch A Bird.

Hope this additional comments may give a better picture and rationale to apply.


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