Changing the face (and LOOK!) of TB's in the years to come!

[angrovestud]

In the Uk we have used the Letter O for overo and a number to denote what coat colour a horse in wearing I think you could perhaps adapt this to say O1B = AEe Bay
O1=ee +CC Cremmello if this was Overo/sabino
if not overo then
nono=eeCC
for white SB1SB1OO
something to think about.
see what you guys make of it its in the rough at the moment.

[TrueColours]

I think very honestly if we start to try and ram different colour patterns down the JC's throats, their eyes will glaze over and they will start thinking about what they are going to be doing this weekend instead of listening to what we have to say.

I *personally* would be thrilled to get buckskin, cremello and perlino accepted now and then we work on smoky black and smoky cream which arent that common anyhow

I dont think in our collective lifetimes we will see overo, frame, splash, dominant, etc assigned to different colour patterns and to be very honest, I cant see why they should do so either. Its totally different for the APHA which is a colour registry but to try and move the JC WAY over to the left and get THEM to assign equal importance to colour patterns as they do to bloodlines will be an excercise in futility. IMO anyhow ...

If we can convince them that by assigning the CORRECT colours to the foals we are producing they will be taking a huge step forward then I believe that 99% of the coloured TB breeders will be satisfied with that goal being achieved

I'd love to hear the others comments on this viewpoint as well

[BlazingColours]

I think very honestly if we start to try and ram different colour patterns down the JC's throats, their eyes will glaze over and they will start thinking about what they are going to be doing this weekend instead of listening to what we have to say.

I *personally* would be thrilled to get buckskin, cremello and perlino accepted now and then we work on smoky black and smoky cream which arent that common anyhow

I dont think in our collective lifetimes we will see overo, frame, splash, dominant, etc assigned to different colour patterns and to be very honest, I cant see why they should do so either. Its totally different for the APHA which is a colour registry but to try and move the JC WAY over to the left and get THEM to assign equal importance to colour patterns as they do to bloodlines will be an excercise in futility. IMO anyhow ...

If we can convince them that by assigning the CORRECT colours to the foals we are producing they will be taking a huge step forward then I believe that 99% of the coloured TB breeders will be satisfied with that goal being achieved

I'd love to hear the others comments on this viewpoint as well

I agree. And for those of us who do care about the patterns, we will likely have our horses double registered with APHA and the Jockey Club. As long as the colours are listed correctly on the JC papers we will be much further ahead. The white markings are described at length on the certificate but do we really need for the JC to give them a name??? I do not think so.

Then the only problem comes when the horses have a lot of white. So much white that it is hard to tell what colour they really are. Those get registered as white even though that is not *their* colour. So we could put *white* as the colour and where they ask for markings we could write palomino spots or chestnut spots... etc...

[Desert Oasis Sporthorses]

Assigning the correct color to the foals would be perfect. BC, you are right that most of the horses with white and/or patterns will be dual registered with APHA and therefore the pattern would be noted. As for the whites, my boy is a medicine hat overo. I would need to look at his JC papers, but I believe they note "chestnut ears" or something along those lines.

[soft hearted]

I think very honestly if we start to try and ram different colour patterns down the JC's throats, their eyes will glaze over and they will start thinking about what they are going to be doing this weekend instead of listening to what we have to say.

I *personally* would be thrilled to get buckskin, cremello and perlino accepted now and then we work on smoky black and smoky cream which arent that common anyhow

I dont think in our collective lifetimes we will see overo, frame, splash, dominant, etc assigned to different colour patterns and to be very honest, I cant see why they should do so either. Its totally different for the APHA which is a colour registry but to try and move the JC WAY over to the left and get THEM to assign equal importance to colour patterns as they do to bloodlines will be an excercise in futility. IMO anyhow ...

If we can convince them that by assigning the CORRECT colours to the foals we are producing they will be taking a huge step forward then I believe that 99% of the coloured TB breeders will be satisfied with that goal being achieved

I'd love to hear the others comments on this viewpoint as well

I think you've summed it up very well Donna.
The important part is the base colour genotypically. Spots etc (yes, still a genotype, but not one that always shows generation after generation) can be covered by "markings"
I just go with the KISS theory when it comes to any governing body.
Why do THEY care what is produced? They don't. They just want to be able to identify the horse and track who it breeding to and producing from a PERFERMANCE standpoint.
JMHO.

[Truly]

I don't think any JC will want to get too technical when describing coat patterns...I think the breeders/owners may want to pass on to new owners or other breeders the actual DNA codes of their horses but for basic coat colour identification at registration with a JC it should be simple.

I would say 'Overo' would be a more general term that would suit the JC for those with say the frame gene and as for white horses or nearly all white the term 'maximum sabino' and for horses with small white belly spots on their body just 'sabino'......I don't think the term should be used for any horse that just has a white blase or socks.
It needs to be simple but still correct ..it's not just the JC that don't understand colour genetics but almost all the horsey people in the World (and vets too!)and therefore the forms need to be easy to fill in
eg.
Bay Overo
Chestnut Maximum Sabino
Palomino Sabino

[TrueColours]

I would need to look at his JC papers, but I believe they note "chestnut ears" or something along those lines.

See - that I would be happy with, if something like your guy was registered as white with chestnut ears on the JC papers. That at least would give everyone the knowledge and understanding they need to know that he is a chestnut base coat colour

Can you let us all know what his papers do say?

Thanks Kim

[Desert Oasis Sporthorses]

I will check tonight when I get home from the office and let you know.

[pfrsue]

I've been following this conversation with a lot of interest. I've had a fascination for the rarer colored Thoroughbreds since the 80's when I worked at a stable that boarded a daughter of Gold Apollo. (I'd have sworn she was buckskin, but of course that made her bay, the same way that Gold Apollo was chestnut. )

My primary question is this. Just how much static does the JC kick up when a supposedly 'impossible' colored foal, given the registered color of the parents, is submitted for registration? (Since everything is DNA typed, they couldn't really deny registration, or cite a fence jumper, right?)

Follow up question. How much static did the JC kick up in the same circumstances before DNA became prevalent? Were horses ever refused registration?

I don't want to derail the conversation by any means, but I guess I'm partially wondering how hard it was to even get White recognized and also what the primary motive is for pushing to bring the other colors officially into the registry. (Ease of registration? Just for accuracy's sake? For sales purposes?) If I was a color breeder, I think I'd be tempted to rally the other breeders as a group to campaign for one color at a time, establishing that in the registry and then moving on to the next. In other words, to feed it into the JC one bite at a time, rather than presenting them with the whole spectrum at once.

Okay enough rambling from me.

Sue

[TrueColours]

Sue - I know when I was back showing actively, a lady that was good friend's with the Samuel's that owned SamSon Farm showed this beautiful bay TB with a white face and 4 tall stockings and a HUGE belly spot. He was 6 I believe at the time and the reason Laurie had this beautifully royally SamSon bred gelding was because the JC refused his registration because of the belly spot for years and when they finally relented and allowed him to be registered, he was 4 at the time and of course it was now way too late to point him to a race career (as back then they had to break their maiden's by 4) so Laurie ended up with him

I know that Jerry Tyler had one helluva time with Puchilingui as well and had to pay something along the lines of $10,000.00 to get all sorts of additional tests done and it was all relating to his colour as they had him listed as grey/roan and seemed to turn a blind eye to the fact that he COULDNT be grey/roan without a grey/roan parent in there!

My perlino mare is listed as palomino - I mean honestly - how stupid is that? And yes - depending on who she is bred to down the road I am going to have major problems with that classification down the road.

Just how much static does the JC kick up when a supposedly 'impossible' colored foal, given the registered color of the parents, is submitted for registration?

And I guess this isnt QUITE the point Sue, its us - as the breeders and owners of these mares/foals/stallions - allowing the perpetrating of the wrong colours to go forward generation upon generation. I think at a certain point it simply has to stop and from this point onwards, the correct colours need to be put forward, so mares like Artic Color and Artic Squaw arent registered as grey/roan, Prideandprejudice is listed as bay with excessive white markings and not grey/roan

I dont want Nightlight to be listed as brown or dark bay or God forbid - palomino - because they dont know what else to do with her. If the breeder is armed with genetic proof of what these horses actually are, I believe the JC needs to accept that and allow them to be registered correctly. Nightlight is my little crusade - I'll let you all know how I make out!

And I do also agree - perhaps hitting the JC with one colour at a time as a collective group would be a smart way to go

[Jorge]

Sue - I know when I was back showing actively, a lady that was good friend's with the Samuel's that owned SamSon Farm showed this beautiful bay TB with a white face and 4 tall stockings and a HUGE belly spot. He was 6 I believe at the time and the reason Laurie had this beautifully royally SamSon bred gelding was because the JC refused his registration because of the belly spot for years and when they finally relented and allowed him to be registered, he was 4 at the time and of course it was now way too late to point him to a race career (as back then they had to break their maiden's by 4) so Laurie ended up with him

Would really like to identify his name. Any idea?

[Jorge]

Another reason why I think governing bodies would like to keep up with simple descriptions is because of lack of space within the race programs published for the public. Remember we all like to ponder on coat colors and markings but, what about the preference of the general public?

Now let's go to a bottom line: Would you like phenotypical descriptions or genotypical descriptions. I think if we first decide this cornerstone angle the rest will follow up.

Cast a vote!

[RiddleMeThis]

Genotype without a doubt.

[TrueColours]

Would really like to identify his name. Any idea?

I wouldnt even know where to start Jorge to be honest. With Ernie and Liza Samuel both passed away, Tammy as well, Kim and Mark would have been young kids at the time and they wouldnt remember at all and I havent seen or spoken with Laurie in a good 20-25 years and I wouldnt know where to even start to look. I am pretty certain this is a dead end on this one

Genotype gets my vote as well

[Desert Oasis Sporthorses]

TC: Boy, was I wrong! I pulled my stallion's papers. White colt by Arctic White out of Many Tokens. Maybe I should get his papers corrected. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks!