Changing the face (and LOOK!) of TB's in the years to come!

[TrueColours]

VERY interesting discussion!

I honestly think the Guaranteed Gold / Puchi Trap cross would produce a very nice, very successful race horse. Not Kentucky Derby quality by any means but something that could pay its way and have some good success in the allowance and possibly lesser stake races. Puchi Trap was a real speedball and her foals mature quickly, well and strong with no soundness issues at all. I think if she had been managed a little more prudently, she could have done far better at the track herself. I saw a video clip of her as a long yearling (in December of her yearling year! ) galloping at speed at the track, on frozen, cruddy, uneven footing and that did affect her long term soundness for sure. Despite that, she did have a decent race record in the few starts that she did have

So - if I dont sell them first and I can free up the $$$ to do so, I'd love to make one of those youngsters into a race horse at some point down the road

So - a little different than what you are suggesting Jorge but I hope that I have some success doing it this way. To be honest as well, I have little to no interest in promoting some other stallion just to try and produce an all white sabino race horse. I have far more interest in using Guaranteed Gold in my quest to produce something that will have success at moderate levels and will give GG some credibility out there in the racing circles as well

[Jorge]

Dear Donna,

My previous message was written without knowledge of your latest posting, so it is not a rebute to your comments in no way because it is
quite obvious that Faux Finish is one of the finest example of a correct Thoroughbred athlete, running or not ---period! Faux Finish was not brought in within the body of my writing, but on a happy note as a post scripta, precisely because of the great admiration many of us feel for her, reason for which 3 smiling faces accompany her name, albeit she has no direct (nor indirect) thing to do with the topic.

The general purpose of the posting was to define in raw black and white analysis (no gray shades) the most important elements that in my opinion may help boost the chances of promoting the production of rare coat colors in Thoroughbreds alone. Of course, other non-TB gray shades (hunting, jumping, dressage, barrel competitions, and many others) surely help complete the whole picture, and even better, may help save the life of hundreds of Thoroughbreds, but it is my opinion that Thoroughbreds and only Thoroughbreds are better defended within the protective paradigm that justified their existence, that is, racing ability.

Hope this may better explain the confusion.

[TrueColours]

My previous message was written without knowledge of your latest posting, so it is not a rebute to your comments in no way because it is
quite obvious that Faux Finish is one of the finest example of a correct Thoroughbred athlete, running or not ---period! Faux Finish was not brought in within the body of my writing, but on a happy note as a post scripta, precisely because of the great admiration many of us feel for her, reason for which 3 smiling faces accompany her name, albeit she has no direct (nor indirect) thing to do with the topic.

If you were here Jorge, I would give you a big hug and a kiss ...

Comments like those above from someone I respect SO much mean the world to me ...

Thank you from the bottom of my heart ...

[BlazingColours]

The general purpose of the posting was to define in raw black and white analysis (no gray shades) the most important elements that in my opinion may help boost the chances of promoting the production of rare coat colors in Thoroughbreds alone. Of course, other non-TB gray shades (hunting, jumping, dressage, barrel competitions, and many others) surely help complete the whole picture, and even better, may help save the life of hundreds of Thoroughbreds, but it is my opinion that Thoroughbreds and only Thoroughbreds are better defended within the protective paradigm that justified their existence, that is, racing ability.

Hope this may better explain the confusion.

Yes that does help. Thanks Jorge. There is so much more to breeding Thoroughbreds these days than 50+ years ago. They are used in so many more sports other than racing. And their importance in those should not be over looked when defining their worth.

[Jorge]

Quote: "Someone may have to breakdown the barrier for sporthorses first. There seems to be the feeling that sporthorse breeding lines don't make good racehorses. Any out there breeding speed sires to sporthorse mares and racing the offspring?"

I think that perhaps the aforementioned quote reflects the reality that coat color breeders ought to unify forces in order to achieve that their coat colors produced are correctly labeled by authorities. If coat color breeders are united in their goals via quite united clear expressed rationales this may help gain more recognition when arguing in front of registry authorities. How can we simply accept the practice of registering "whites" as "roans" or even "grays"; "perlinos" as "bays"; and "cremellos as chestnuts?

Second, how can coat color breeders may gain the degree of deserved respect they must have, if the industry hears no single unified voice from them. This backs the wrong and damaging false image that coat color breeders are not so seriously commited to producing talented runners. Nothing more far from the truth.

A good example are the circumstances that paved the way for the creation of this section (The Color Corner). Do you remember the discussions in pro and con of coat color breeding. But when this section was finally created a huge number of devotees began rushing towards our topics. Now there is no shame in expressing the importance of our topics, as a valuable visible tool to apply our learned lessons towards general horse breeding.

[BlazingColours]

How can we simply accept the practice of registering "whites" as "roans" or even "grays"; "perlinos" as "bays"; and "cremellos as chestnuts?

Second, how can coat color breeders may gain the degree of deserved respect they must have, if the industry hears no single unified voice from them.

I would love to unify with other breeders who are having foals registered as colours they are not. Has it been done before where a group gets together and goes to the JC on this matter? You can sign me up...

Edited to add... the colour palomino was allowed because of a breeder in Germany, right? Did have anything to do with the fact that there are palominos out there training at the track too? Since no cremellos and perlinos are at the track, the JC simply does not care?

[Jorge]

When I posted the following thread a few weeks ago:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... highlight=

I thought that since the topic dealt with a key problem affecting coat color breeders, that it may have sparked an interesting in communication and may perhaps end up with a unified position in order to "take the bull by the horns" and crystalize our thoughts on this issue. Wrong presumption! The topic was scarcely read and scarcely answered. I thought to myself: no wonder there is no serious respect for these endeavors and decided to halt further writing on the issue. I am not resurrecting the idea again, please discard it. But I bring the issue as an emblematic example of lack of unity among the interested parties.

[BlazingColours]

I see your point. The lettering idea is neat but just not practical for naming horses.
There is a lack of unity for sure. But I do feel it is getting better than it was 5 or so years ago...

[Jorge]

Returning to the main topic:
"Changing the face (and LOOK!) of TB's in the years to come!"

Here a suggestion:
Is it possible for someone closely related with coat color breeding to organize a fraternal commitee of their peers to identify all the basic problems affecting them when registering their horses and let us know. It can be a good starting point. How about first identify the obstacles.

01. Identification of obstacles.
02. Organization of a commitee.
03. How to fulfill their goals.

This section can be a forum.

[Jorge]

I received an email that made me think again on the 3 main factors (trajectory of the gray color) I described awhile back and made me remember how life gives you surprises, some pleasant, some though, but the factual factors are still there. Let me explain.

During the hard luck era of the gray color people didn't expect a gray horse to win the Kentucky Derby and there was not much hope. Suddenly a gray colt juvenile named Native Dancer emerged and took racing by storm. It was the most logical thing to expect that he would win the 1953 Kentucky Derby next year. It was so logical.....but it didn't happen. Everything was lost, so it seemed. Can you imagine all the deception from all the people who were expecting him to win the Derby?

But then, the very next year, when nobody was seriously expecting a gray to win the Derby, Determine stepped up and won. He saved the day and fate for grays. Note that Determine was a son of an unraced stallion (Alibhai), who was a son of a top-notch stallion named Hyperion, and out of a Mahmoud mare. See how the trajectory was accomplished: connecting the better sire strains (albeit, unraced for cost reasons) with the correct gray broodmare strain. There is a lesson there.

This can also be applied to our rare coat colors. Not everybody has a YUKICHAN, but there is access to some of the best world lineages via unraced top-notch, regally bred sires out there. In synthesis, let's always consider the best proven lineages as basic material for all our programs.
The preceeding thought is a general opinion only and not a criticism to anybody.

[reedhill]

I'm right there with you Jorge, and agree 100%!!

[Jorge]

Thanks for this initial response:

BLAZING COLOURS WROTE: ---------------------------------------------------------------------

I would love to unify with other breeders who are having foals registered as colours they are not. Has it been done before where a group gets together and goes to the JC on this matter? You can sign me up...

Edited to add... the colour palomino was allowed because of a breeder in Germany, right? Did have anything to do with the fact that there are palominos out there training at the track too? Since no cremellos and perlinos are at the track, the JC simply does not care?

REEDHILL WROTE: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm right there with you Jorge, and agree 100%!!




Other additions to this fraternal commitee?

[Jorge]

Thanks for another response:


TRUECOLOURS WROTE: ------------------------------------------------------

I would love it if we could collectively petition the Jockey Club to get their facts straight with the registration of these *different* coloured Thoroughbreds, once and for all. The Nightlight filly (smoky black) has been applied for as "black" with substantiating proof through her DNA sample that she IS in fact smoky black and not bay/brown. That one I will fight tooth and nail on to ensure she is correctly registered as black and nothing else and I will let everyone know how I make out when their response and her papers come back

Count me in and let me know what I need to do ...




Other interested voices?

[xfactor fan]

With all the back and forth, none of you breeders of colored TB is addressing the "Sporthorse Ghetto".

TB racing breeders don't breed to regular colored sporthorses, despite decrying the genetic bottleneck and the decline of old time bloodlines that are alive and well in the sport horse and eventing worlds. If the racing crowd won't breed to regular color horses, what makes anyone think that they will breed to colored horses?

Glitter Please is a good example of some of this thinking. He was bred to be a race horse, not a sport horse.


http://www.touchngofarm.com/index.php?o ... Itemid=201

Here's a link to part of his story by Gigi Nutter.

Take a look at the first paragraph, Gigi was contacted by the breeder when Glitter Please was a yearling. So this breeder once Glitter Please shed his foal coat, and figured out that he had a palomino TB on his hands, diverted the colt from a racing career to one as a sporthorse. Without ever taking the time to figure out if Glitter Please would make it on the track.

Has this changed?

[SouthernStar]

With all the back and forth, none of you breeders of colored TB is addressing the "Sporthorse Ghetto".

TB racing breeders don't breed to regular colored sporthorses, despite decrying the genetic bottleneck and the decline of old time bloodlines that are alive and well in the sport horse and eventing worlds. If the racing crowd won't breed to regular color horses, what makes anyone think that they will breed to colored horses?

Glitter Please is a good example of some of this thinking. He was bred to be a race horse, not a sport horse.


http://www.touchngofarm.com/index.php?o ... Itemid=201

Here's a link to part of his story by Gigi Nutter.

Take a look at the first paragraph, Gigi was contacted by the breeder when Glitter Please was a yearling. So this breeder once Glitter Please shed his foal coat, and figured out that he had a palomino TB on his hands, diverted the colt from a racing career to one as a sporthorse. Without ever taking the time to figure out if Glitter Please would make it on the track.

Has this changed?

Thanks for posting this!
Of our fifteen mares, thirteen of them are race bred. the two that are not were colored bred. Most have raced, some have done better than others. It would be interesting to cross the two and produce colored horses that could race. It would be great to see these horses race, and I think it could happen in the near future. We crossed one of these non race bred mares to Marquetry to see what we would get...it was a huge gamble but it might just pay off. Granted we haven't crossed any dilute mares becasue we don't have the mare base to do that just yet.
I think it is great that other breeders are doing the same thing!