Pedigree Query
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A legitimate way of introducing Appaloosa markings?
https://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=28476
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Author:  Linda_d [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:56 am ]
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angrovestud wrote:
Yes the horses can get in to the GSB the 8th generation its known as the vechicle we have to go another four generations so it will be after my lifetime I am working on trying to win a race or more in the UK under our present system then the breeding programme will hopefully be more then us and it can carry on and then they can be exported :D


I find this so ironic in that American TBs were essentially banned from the GSB for some 30 years by the Jersey Act (which said, essentially, that all TBs had to trace to TBs already in the GSB): that somebody could introduce Appy or tobiano markings through a non-TB and eventually get it into the GSB, and then that horse could be imported to the US as a TB.

I suppose the idea of the closed ASB is that they don't want a lot of double registered AQHA/JC horses, which is what they'd probably get if they adopted the British NTR rules.

Author:  xfactor fan [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:42 pm ]
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The Jersey Act had a lot to do with American horses winning races in Europe. The act prevented lots of American horses from running. Thus keeping money in the hands of the Brits.

Author:  summerhorse [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:54 pm ]
Post subject: 

Linda_d wrote:
angrovestud wrote:
Yes the horses can get in to the GSB the 8th generation its known as the vechicle we have to go another four generations so it will be after my lifetime I am working on trying to win a race or more in the UK under our present system then the breeding programme will hopefully be more then us and it can carry on and then they can be exported :D


I find this so ironic in that American TBs were essentially banned from the GSB for some 30 years by the Jersey Act (which said, essentially, that all TBs had to trace to TBs already in the GSB): that somebody could introduce Appy or tobiano markings through a non-TB and eventually get it into the GSB, and then that horse could be imported to the US as a TB.

I suppose the idea of the closed ASB is that they don't want a lot of double registered AQHA/JC horses, which is what they'd probably get if they adopted the British NTR rules.


That is ironic even if it did have to do more with money and enbaressment that the US horses were cleaning up over there.

Now do these horses have to earn their way in via performance also? Or is it strictly by blood? Heck there are probably a ton of horses here now that could get in via blood only! :lol:

Author:  angrovestud [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:01 am ]
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Its not a test of performance its ment to be a TB after 8 consecutive crosses with pure TBs the rules have been in place for many many years a stallion clantime was a result of this and he will be in many pedigrees both in the UK and I guess in the USA :)

Author:  summerhorse [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:23 pm ]
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I see. Well as I said there are probably already a bunch of apps and pintos over here that could already get in! 8)

Author:  Truly [ Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:12 am ]
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Just wanted to clarify what a 'Point to Point' was :)

Similar to Steeplechasing in that originally it was a race from one point to another point across country taking any obstacle in the route you chose to take..as steeplchasing was from one church steeple to another church steeple.
Anyone could race..farmers, the gentry etc. on any horse breed.
It later was more of an organised race and run by the Hunts.
More like Timber racing in the US.

In more recent years the horses the were required to be registered with Weatherby's in the General Stud Book (GSB)or the Non Thoroughbred Register (NTR)
The race meetings are organised by the Hunts not the Jockey Club but are run under JC rules.
The Jockey Club run the races, Weatherbys run the studbook (unlike the US where the JC runs both)
It was meant for amatuers and Hunt followers as opposed to professional racing eg National Hunt racing...the fences are the same. But the distances do not vary as much...they are usually 3 and a half miles in a P to P. Sometimes they have a 4 mile race.
Most of the Hunts around the UK and Ireland hold meetings often at shared venues close to each Hunts area...there aren't racecourses with grandstands etc. but usually farmers fields that have establised for many years. It is very much a country sport as in the people dress casual instead of fancy clothes like Ascot.
On a race day afternoon you would get approx six races...one race would be for Hunt members only and in theory you do not need to have a registered GSB or NTR to enter just as long as you are a member of the Hunt holding the meeting...the other races are for GSB /NTR horses and would include a Maiden race, Ladies race, Mens race, Open race, Restricted race etc.
Although it is thought of as an ammy country sport..it is very high class and run professionally...most of the horses are ex NH horses or have been breed from popular P to P lines over the years and progress to top NH racing and end up in Championship races held at Cheltenham and Aintree.... you just can't have a pro jockey license to ride in them....but have to have an ammy license.

Hope that helps you get the picture? :)

PS My love of TB's comes from Point to Pointing...when I left school my first job was working for a vet who owned Point to Pointers and kept them at his home :)

Author:  Truly [ Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:26 am ]
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This link sums it up quite well :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stEZUP3IqrI

Author:  Pan Zareta [ Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:40 am ]
Post subject: 

summerhorse wrote:
Now do these horses have to earn their way in via performance also? Or is it strictly by blood? Heck there are probably a ton of horses here now that could get in via blood only! :lol:


The ISBC rule is vague ("if accepted") on that subject, perhaps deliberately so.

Promotion of Mares and Stallions to Vehicle Status - it is important for good order that all Stud Books should have a common approach to the eligibility of evolving bloodlines. Thoroughbred status is achieved after 8 successive crosses of thoroughbred blood and the produce of the seventh cross, if accepted by ISBC, is designated a "vehicle" mare/stallion. The ISBC is the acknowledged authority which can grant this status which is then recognised worldwide.

Author:  Truly [ Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:25 pm ]
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Basically it means Weatherbys would put the case to the ISBC asking if it could be transferred into the GSB but it could only be approved if the line had produced successes under the rules of racing and therefore earned it's right to enter the GSB...all the members of the ISBC would take a vote.
It would be no benefit to the GSB if the line had no success racing and would not be approved.

Author:  angrovestud [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:54 am ]
Post subject: 

Thankfully we have had some success already so we are well on the way rummy shows you can be a long way from full Tb 87.5% and still be as good as full Tb at that level of racing and as there is no mention of what tuype of racing to gain access to the GSB it should be fairly straight forward in many years to come

Author:  mehile [ Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:16 pm ]
Post subject: 

summerhorse wrote:
I see. Well as I said there are probably already a bunch of apps and pintos over here that could already get in! 8)


I wonder if they would be nixed out because of AI? It would be hard to find and harder to prove(probably) that non of the horses in 8 generations where conceived using AI. It's just so widely used in APHA and Appaloosas(and practically every other breed except Tbs)

Author:  Jorge [ Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

angrovestud wrote:
Its not a test of performance its ment to be a TB after 8 consecutive crosses with pure TBs the rules have been in place for many many years a stallion clantime was a result of this and he will be in many pedigrees both in the UK and I guess in the USA :)


Dear Angrovestud,

Thank you so much for all your valuable postings. I always enjoy your hands-on approach on these not necessarily easy topics. Certainly, there are so many angles of discussion for all of us to learn about. Thanks again!

Pondering on these supra-8-generation "Thoroughbreds”, is there any
list somewhere to be found where one can browse all these aspiring cases? Whether a formal list or an informal one, there should be a source for the people who are trying to arrive to the "Supra 8" goal. I guess that the "Allbreed database" over here (Del Mar) may prove to be a good instrument. What about Weatherbys provisions and protocols?

All the Best for you and your valiant efforts.

Author:  angrovestud [ Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:24 am ]
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Thank you Jorge you are most kind! I do not know of any list and I do think weatherbys would have such info they let me have a list of all the NTR stallions of which there are around 400 or so and they are all different breeds with Tb in them I dont know of any other studs as such but I do know of a few people Sue Kennedy the first person to race a Tobiano in the Uk sadly hers were fast but lacked staminar but she has retured now after racing two, then there is a man in Bristol way I think that has used the same bloodline as Sue but he has not raced any of his stock and i think hes getting on a bit.

Author:  Jorge [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:18 am ]
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VERY IMPORTANT!

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YOUR PARTICIPATION WILL BE VERY IMPORTANT!!

Author:  Jorge [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:45 am ]
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Jorge wrote:
VERY IMPORTANT!

PLEASE LOGON TO THE FOLLOWING TOPIC:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... 452#312452

THAT TOPIC IS A TANGENTIAL IDEA THAT HAS EMERGED AS A RESULT OF WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING HERE.

IT'S ABOUT ASSEMBLING HERE A
"QUASI-THOROUGHBRED DATABASE"

PLEASE DON'T MISS TO PARTICIPATE, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THE FORMAL CREATION OF A DATABASE RESERVED
FOR "QUASI-THOROUGHBREDS".

AND WHAT IS A "QUASI-THOROUGHBRED"? YOU MAY ASK.
WELL, LET'S DEFINE IT AS AN EQUINE CARRYING NO MORE
THAN THREE NON-THOROUGHBRED ANCESTORS WITHIN HIS/HER
FIRST FIVE (5) GENERATIONS WHO ASPIRES TO INCREASE HIS/HER
PERCENTAGE OF THOROUGHBRED BLOOD FOR HIS/HER FUTURE GENERATIONS.

YOUR PARTICIPATION WILL BE VERY IMPORTANT!!


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