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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:23 pm 
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What is the modern European criteria for a "Roan" (TB)?

A good example is the mare DALTAMA (Ire)(roan M)

Hope that our European collaborators may assist us here.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:40 am 
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A roan has a dark head, dark legs and does not whiten with age.
I've seen many.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:51 am 
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roans have "corn spots" when they had an injury with a scare.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:18 am 
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Let me provide more information in order to better discuss this topic.

According to US registry, apparently, Daltama has not been assigned a coat color yet. But according to European official sources she has been registered as a “roan”.
( http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_ ... _id=709986 )

When I query about Daltama’s assigned coat color, I am not referring to the classic genotypical definition of a “roan” as unanimously known within the equine world (except in Thoroughbreds), but to the “sui-generis” definition applied within European Thoroughbred circles; which evidently must run independently to the European term “gray”.

In this sense it is quite different to the wrongly amalgamed definition of “gray/roan” which is applied on this side of the Atlantic. I want to know the European phenotypical definition for a “roan”, regardless of the fact that such European definition ought to be non-genetic because there are no genotypical roans within the Thoroughbred breed (Except perhaps the yet to be genetically confirmed phenotypical branches from Catch A Bird).

I want to know the criteria used in Europe to label Daltama as a “roan”, because I am positively sure that she is not sporting a dark head, black lower leg markings and a “non-whitening-with-age” mix of white hairs.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:12 pm 
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In the sales catalogues they are usually called "grey or roan", so I'm not really sure whether roan is an independent color or not.
As far as I know those "roan" horses are actually normal greys with chestnut (or bay) as the base color thus being a reddish grey.

I hope this helps :D


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:05 pm 
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Mischi wrote:
As far as I know those "roan" horses are actually normal greys with chestnut (or bay) as the base color thus being a reddish grey.


Mischi, I totally agree with you.
As far I know, the pre-"gray/roan" era "roan" Thoroughbreds were simply reddish-base genotypical grays, sporting non-black tails and manes; usually with many reddish speckles. Is that "quantum" still being applied in Europe for the "modern" roans? How are they relating with registries from this side of the Atlantic?

Shhh, lets not mention what are they going to do with "Old Uncle Hairy", namely, the (apparently) genuine "R" gene roans descending from Catch A Bird (cases like Lavender Fields and several others). Go figure!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:18 pm 
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Jorge,

I've always figured that gray was applied to black based horses, roan to the reds. A quick glance at her pedigree suggests that she may very well be red based, and a genetic gray. Not DW or any of the other colors that might be called roan.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:17 pm 
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Jorge wrote:
What is the modern European criteria for a "Roan" (TB)?


It varies by registry. Weatherbys is the keeper of the UK stud book, and registered Daltama. See Sections A & B of their
Identification of Horses Booklet.

Imo, their guide is far too ambiguous, and the North American JC's lumping together of grey and roan is bound to result in confusion. Grey ought to be reserved for true greys and roan for true roans. Roan probably shouldn't even be an option in TB registries. All true roans like the example below (who's also sabino) have intermixed base coat color and white except on the head, legs, tail & mane. They also have the same genetic marker near the KIT gene on one or both copies of chromosome 3. It has long been believed that true roan doesn't exist in the TB, and to date that marker hasn't been documented in the breed. That doesn't mean some TBs don't exhibit roaning, i.e. white hairs in other distribution patterns, such as rabicano. Obviously, they do.
Image


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:53 am 
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Correction:

The Thoroughbred breed has already produced, at least, more than four (4) phenotypically genuine roan Thoroughbreds.

The trend was established by Catch A Bird ( http://www.pedigreequery.com/catch+a+bird ),
who was registered as “bay” but actually was “brindle”. Although Catch A Bird was not a “roan” himself, he did miraculously sired four (4) genuine looking “roan” offsprings. These were named:

ODD COLOURS: http://www.pedigreequery.com/odd+colours
SLIP CATCH: http://www.pedigreequery.com/slip+catch
RED NOBLE: http://www.pedigreequery.com/red+noble3
GOLD HILLPARK: http://www.pedigreequery.com/goldhill+park

From these names, specifically from ODD COLOURS and SLIP CATCH all “roan” colored Thoroughbred descend.

The most recent example is LAVENDER FIELDS.

LAVENDER FIELDS pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/lavender+fields
LAVENDER FIELDS photo:
http://equinecolor.info/content/ummm-th ... tch?page=2

Although neither of these phenotypical roans has been DNA tested, one thing is quite clear, at least from a phenotypical point of view, all are sporting the classical genuine visual characteristics of a genuine roan.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:48 pm 
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Catch A Bird's descendants are appropriately placed in the roan color category. But assuming that his pedigree as given in the db here is correct (was he ever blood or DNA typed to sire & dam?) the most likely explanation for his markings is new mutation, not inherited characteristic. Are there any TBs other than Catch A Bird descendants that are (or were) phenotypically true roan?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:21 pm 
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I'm not sure if I understand the question Jorge?
If you are referring to the TB registeries, like Weatherby's in England then it's just pure ignorance on how greys grey out to white eventually.
We do have lots of true roans in our native breeds so should know the difference but many people still confuse a young horse that is going grey with a roan...whatever it's breed.
As TB's are registered as foals, it's easy for people to mistake it's 'now' colour for that of a roan, whether black or red based....nothing more than ignorance of colour genetics I'm afraid.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:11 pm 
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Pan Zareta wrote:
Jorge wrote:
What is the modern European criteria for a "Roan" (TB)?


It varies by registry. Weatherbys is the keeper of the UK stud book, and registered Daltama. See Sections A & B of their
Identification of Horses Booklet.

Imo, their guide is far too ambiguous, and the North American JC's lumping together of grey and roan is bound to result in confusion. Grey ought to be reserved for true greys and roan for true roans. Roan probably shouldn't even be an option in TB registries. All true roans like the example below (who's also sabino) have intermixed base coat color and white except on the head, legs, tail & mane. They also have the same genetic marker near the KIT gene on one or both copies of chromosome 3. It has long been believed that true roan doesn't exist in the TB, and to date that marker hasn't been documented in the breed. That doesn't mean some TBs don't exhibit roaning, i.e. white hairs in other distribution patterns, such as rabicano. Obviously, they do.
Image


Pan Zareta,

Thank you so much for the reference on the "Identification of Horses Booklet". This source seems quite clear and apparently answers many questions.

If they (Europe) adhere strictly to that source no dilemma should ocurr but since Thoroughbred registries have accords of reciprocity among themselves and since the still-valid "gray/roan" nomenclature is an erroneous amalgam between two different coat color definitions, I wonder how would they try to harmonize the case of Daltama if she were to race in the US. (not probable). Or how would a US registry label her color now, given that she has not yet been given a color. Would they label her as a "gray/roan" even though she is not an official "gray" in her native country?

As per Truly's comment, I am sure that European authorities understand
quite well the differences in coat color between the Thoroughbred and the non-Thoroughbred paradigms regarding "roans". But since there is so much correspondence between both entities, I would really like to know what will happen.

Obviously, the more this "gray/roan" nomenclature survives within registries (via reciprocity accords), while the genuine "roan" descendants from Catch A Bird gains recognition, the more an eventual clash of coat color definitions will ocurr. Why not find a solution at the present before the Gordian knot increases in size?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:43 pm 
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I suspect it is the same as it was here, red =roan, black = grey. BUT any roaned horse (sabino, DW, ra bicano, stained whites) are also lumped in with "roan" at least over here. I'm guessing the Aussie roans are also listed as such.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:57 am 
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In France, it is usually defined as "grey or roan" a grey horse with colored hairs. In fact it's a greying horse on which we can see the base color.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:01 pm 
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The following British-bred Thoroughbred is a good example
why I originally posted this thread.

If you examine this colt:
Scargill, (Roan c 2011) http://www.pedigreequery.com/scargill3
you will notice that he is officially
registered as "roan", like it used to be in
the pre-"gray/roan" nomenclature paradigm of today.

That's the reason why I would like to know about
the criteria by which they register these equines
as "roans". Of course it is understood that it has
nothing to do with the real "Ro" genotype, who
apparently disappeared from the Thoroughbred
breed several centuries ago.

(This assertion, of course, excluding the descendants
of Catch A Bird, who fashions all the phenotypical
characteristics of a genuine "roan" but no evidence
has been made public as far as I know)


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