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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:06 am 
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It's simply because they don't know the difference Jorge...like I said above.
The breeder or owner of the stud would fill in most of the registration form when the foal is born or the vet would do it or he'd confirm what the breeder had put down.
If neither understand colour genetics then they just put down the colour they think they see.
Weatherby's would take their word for it unless it wasn't a colour already approved.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:10 am 
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PS They could change the colour on the passport at a later date ...usually done when sending in a name form but most are named before they are 2yo so most haven't greyed out that much by then and still 'look' sort of roan...so they wouldn't bother to change it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:55 am 
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There is a very interesting photo of SCARGILL at:
http://www.mickchannon.tv/page/news?page=4
(Scroll down to the eighth photo adjacent to the date “16 APR”)

Hey, the main body phenotype of this colt really looks
like some sort of “Oxbow-sprinkled” kind of horse.
Yet he is also fashioning in his legs “bona fide”
phenotypical roan characteristics ---but without a darker head!

But on the rebuffing side, be aware that his upper right
front leg is showing signs that his hair was clipped. Go figure!

Browse and reach your own conclusion.

As per SCARGILL’s official registered coat colour, here is some
evidence from two official sites:

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_ ... horse_form

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedig ... ==Scargill (GB)&dam_name=Rose Cheval&foaling_year=2011&nicking_stats_indicator=Y

Is this colt a unique crop-out worth further analysis and study?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:23 pm 
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Thanks, I always appreciate pictures!

His head isn't dark...hard to tell what all is going on in that photo.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:59 am 
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British-bred SCARGILL is officially registered as a "roan"
and here is the evidence from two official sites:

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_ ... horse_form

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedig ... ==Scargill (GB)&dam_name=Rose Cheval&foaling_year=2011&nicking_stats_indicator=Y

I would really appreciate your comments on this case.

Here is his photo: (Scroll down to the eighth photo adjacent to the date “16 APR”)

http://www.mickchannon.tv/page/news?page=4


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:21 am 
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does not look roan to me, rather rabicano.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:39 pm 
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color wrote:
does not look roan to me, rather rabicano.


Thanks for your valuable comments. What are you seeing that may help
explain the official color he was assigned? Thanks in advance for other valuable participations from our breeders of coat colours.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:08 pm 
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Pondering on this case makes me conclude that, most probably,
when they are using the term "roan" as an official coat colour designation, they are really not implying that this is a genetic coat colour per-se as we all know it, but rather as a way of describing a visual perception (phenotype) like if we were referring to an unrelated "roaned" case; like say, Preakness winner Oxbow.

As we all know, Oxbow is not coming from a grey/roan immediate
parent but he is referred to as "roaned". In the case of Oxbow it is
quite understandable because he is carrying no gray immediate parents.

But in the case of SCARGILL it is a head scratcher because he has a gray immediate parent, namely his dam. Is he an ordinary gray sporting a very late developing gray coat like it occurred with Spectacular Bid, who by the way is the gray ancestor this juvenile is carrying? Or is he not a gray gene carrier a-la Oxbow?

Certainly, this juvenile is unfolding as a very interesting phenotypical case to follow ---not without even mentioning his curious rabicano trait.

More opinions on this one, especially from our coat colour breeders?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:45 pm 
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SCARGILL, now a stakes winner:
http://www.racingpost.com/horses/result ... s=ANALYSIS


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Jorge wrote:


http://photos.racingpost.com/app/WebObj ... -q09Z8Q..a


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:13 pm 
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He definitely looks grey in the last photo Jorge :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:42 pm 
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Yeah, he's just a grey.

As for Catch A Bird he was not roan and I forget now but asked Sponenberg about it once and he said it would most likely be a new mutation in him (to pass on, not that HE had it, he did not). I don't know what his official production of roan is but in TBs it was pretty low BUT he was bred to a lot of other breed mares as well and many of those were also roan (from non roans) so his true % of roan foals is unknown. There was something that would account for the low % of roan if it were actually across the board but now I forget what he said it was!!

I'm sure the first thing they did was blood type him! I don't know about DNA, he probably pre-dated that but his foals would have been DNA'ed right? Do they do that there?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:19 pm 
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Jorge wrote:


The utmost interesting thing to be seen here is whether he stays that way
without whitening out (as an "Oxbow" kind of non-grey), or whether he begins
whitening out like a normal grey (due to his possible late-whitening grey gene from Spectacular Bid).

If he stays like a "roaned" non-grey case, this would be a very interesting case to study and follow up.

If he evolves into a normal whitening-up grey case, then he would become
a "run-of-the-mill" grey and the dilemma ends there. Only time would tell.

But anyway, the following question still persists: Why was he registered as a "roan" in a jurisdiction not
necessarily known for pursuing unnecesary coat colours? What did they saw on this case?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:46 am 
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I have just watched the video of Scargills last run which he won he has no white on the top of his tail, he is not Rabicano he is a lot paler then his fellow bay runners, hes now being trained with Brain Ellison and our ex jockey Paul pickard will be riding him out at home if I get to see Paul I will ask him about Scargill's colour but I am sure he will be on the Ellisons web site before long.
He could well be going grey but has no grey round his eyes

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:04 pm 
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angrovestud wrote:
I have just watched the video of Scargills last run which he won he has no white on the top of his tail, he is not Rabicano he is a lot paler then his fellow bay runners, hes now being trained with Brain Ellison and our ex jockey Paul pickard will be riding him out at home if I get to see Paul I will ask him about Scargill's colour but I am sure he will be on the Ellisons web site before long.
He could well be going grey but has no grey round his eyes


Angrovestud,

Thank you so much for that promising information on SCARGILL. Great!

-------------------

I wonder who was the last US-bred "roan" to be officially registered as such? Anyway, here is a good latter example of a rare consecutive strain (3) of them:

01. VIGORS (roan h 1973) sire of:
02. SOCIAL CONDUCT (roan m 1984) dam of:
03. ULTRAFLEET (roan m 1992) dam of:
04. CAMBIOCORSA (grey/ro m 2002) dam of:
05. SCHIAPARELLI (gry/ro m 2008) http://www.pedigreequery.com/schiaparelli3

Of course that the rule had change when CAMBIOCORSA and SCHIAPARELLI were inscribed under the new terminology of “gray/roan”.


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