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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:27 am 
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If you click to the "Stallions" section of this board, specifically here:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/post ... ly&t=30637
There is an interesting topic on a gray horse named MUSKETIER.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/musketier2

What I find quite interesting about this horse is the
intriguing presence of two closely positioned black Thoroughbred
among his ancestors. This may be of some interest to our readers from "The Color Corner" section of this site.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:38 am 
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This has to be proven "in-situ", in other words, factually by trial and error, but this horse seems to be like the kind of gray horse who may well reproduce a good number of white progeny if crossed with white mares.
Makes me remember Hatchen Man, the gray stallion who was used to produce Patchen Beauty from her white dam. In the case of Hachet Man,
there were other phenotypical friendly factors, along with the fact that The Axe II was very color friendly.


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:59 pm 
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he's running!

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... e-handicap


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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 9:45 pm 
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springboro wrote:


He arrived fourth. See the result at:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... uisville-h


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:40 am 
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Musketier is one of the handsomest horses I've seen in recent years....between his unusually prominent dapples, high head carriage, strutting ways... Such a beauty!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:22 am 
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Maybe I'm missing something Jorge... but why would a gray horse with little or no white have any bearing whatsoever on a white mare producing a white foal by him? What do the black ancestors have to do with anything? I think I'm missing your idea somehow.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:45 pm 
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I wouldn't want to second guess Jorge, but what he may be talking about is the original breeder of Mount Blanc. She tried to preserve the white line by breeding to grays. Now we know that they are two very different things, but before the explosion of knowledge in genetics, it seemed logical that the white was another form of gray. A super gray.

As the the black comment, Jorge and I both have noticed that there may be a connection between the recessive form of Agouti (aa) or black, and Dominant White horses with maximum expression.

If you look at the pedigrees of horses are the original point of the mutation, a number of them have close black relatives.

This is also true of some of the white lines that are being bred for color. That is less clear--the connection is still there, but is it because there is some sort of linkage, or because the breeders are going for maximum contrast and are using blacks in their program?

And this of course is exactly the opposite of how black works to suppress other white markings. Weird.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:04 pm 
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I think a TREMENDOUS amount of it is because breeders are going for the contrast. I personally know several who are aiming for that exactly. I've seen enough red and bay based DWs to not feel there is really a connection.

Except... you do know that the Dominant White mutations ARE linked to extension right? So there will be some noticeable things there.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:05 am 
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xfactor fan wrote:
I wouldn't want to second guess Jorge, but what he may be talking about is the original breeder of Mount Blanc. She tried to preserve the white line by breeding to grays. Now we know that they are two very different things, but before the explosion of knowledge in genetics, it seemed logical that the white was another form of gray. A super gray.

As the the black comment, Jorge and I both have noticed that there may be a connection between the recessive form of Agouti (aa) or black, and Dominant White horses with maximum expression.

If you look at the pedigrees of horses are the original point of the mutation, a number of them have close black relatives.

This is also true of some of the white lines that are being bred for color. That is less clear--the connection is still there, but is it because there is some sort of linkage, or because the breeders are going for maximum contrast and are using blacks in their program?

And this of course is exactly the opposite of how black works to suppress other white markings. Weird.



Albert Einstein once said something like "imagination is more important than knowledge".

Since when dealing with crossing a white Thoroughbred one is obligued to select a horse with a different color (provided you don't use another white mate) you have to be very selective with the kind of mate you are chooosing. In that sense is that I want to try to predict which color is more
friendly to achieve a white Thoroughbred. Using Albert Einstein's assertion, its seems to me that the rule of "imagination" suggests that a "gray", (better if with blue eyes like madame Couturie did) is more friendly that an ordinary bay. This has NO SCIENTIFIC BASE AT ALL because we all know that we are dealing with different genetic arrangements. But it is in the absence of this additional priviledged knowledge that we have to draw a line and decide what kind of mate are we going to use. It is in this aspect that I prefer to use a gray rather than another color. It worked for Madame Couturie and it didn't worked in the case of the sire Clarence Stewart (White H 1977), but in the latter case note that he was bred (by breeder Dr. Leon D Star) to ordinary looking (phenotypically speaking) mates while Madame Couturie bred Mont Blanc with higher phenotypical rigor.

We can say that there is no relation between a gray mate with blue eyes and a white Thoroughbred and such a dictum is correct ---at least from a scientific standpoint (up to today). But all I know is that it worked reiteratedly for Madame Couturie based on "imagination".

That is what I am trying to present.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:24 am 
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I've never seen a gray TB with blue eyes. In fact I've seen very, very few blue eyes TBs period. Blue eyes definitely add to the white component as they are caused by pinto genes.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:05 am 
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Jorge,

The information that Madame Couturie was selecting grays with blue eyes suggests that the important factor was the blue eyes, not the gray. Most gray horses have dark eyes, unless there is some other white pattern affecting eye color.

accphotography

Yep, I know that DW is linked to E being another of the KIT mutations. So of course there is a direct connection between the two genes.

DW has such a range of expression, even horses that have the same DW mutation, that it seems logical that there is something else affecting expression.

If you take a look at the pedigrees of the source of the mutation there is often a brown or black ancestor very close up.

White Beauty. By Ky Colonel out of FILLY O' MINE

http://www.pedigreequery.com/white+beauty

Ky Colonel was chestnut by a Black Sire BALLADIER, and he sired blacks. So Ky Colonel was ee a? .

Filly o'mine was by the brown Holdall, out of a chestnut mare, but the mare had a third dam that was black, so her second dam was ?a, and her dam had a 50% chance of also carrying a.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/shirayukihime

Shirayukihime the white daughter of Sunday Silence a black.

Not Quite White

http://www.pedigreequery.com/not+quite+white

Out of a dkb/br mare, from a line of either brown or dkb/br horses.

And Clarence Stewart was by a brown sire.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/clarence+stewart


In these four cases the breeders were not breeding for color or contrast.

No, I don't think there is a mystical cosmic balance that needs to be maintained--black matching white. But there may be a connection between expression of white and Agouti status. Or Agouti is just a marker and there is something linked to Agouti that influences white expression in DW.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:11 am 
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So you're talking about agouti, not extension. You believe that horses with at least one 'a' actually express FURTHER than horses with at least one 'A'? Do you believe this is also true of red bases with 'a's?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:56 am 
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Yes.

Having something other than A at the agouti loci, seems to boost DW white expression.

Weird, and the opposite of how base coat color usually affects white patterns.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:34 pm 
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Intriguing too as agouti also affects gray.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:43 pm 
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Didn't know that Agouti affects gray. What does it do?


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