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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Also were you the one looking for an example of two Brown horses producing a bay?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Agouti block some of the effects of the melanin clumping (that causes melanomas) in grays.

Yes I'm always looking for a bay out of browns or a wild bay out of anything black based.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:40 pm 
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http://www.pedigreequery.com/a+bonny+irish+lass

She might be worth investigating. And there are a couple of other horses in her female family that you might also want to look at.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:51 am 
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xfactor fan wrote:
Jorge,

The information that Madame Couturie was selecting grays with blue eyes suggests that the important factor was the blue eyes, not the gray. Most gray horses have dark eyes, unless there is some other white pattern affecting eye color.

accphotography

Yep, I know that DW is linked to E being another of the KIT mutations. So of course there is a direct connection between the two genes.

DW has such a range of expression, even horses that have the same DW mutation, that it seems logical that there is something else affecting expression.

If you take a look at the pedigrees of the source of the mutation there is often a brown or black ancestor very close up.

White Beauty. By Ky Colonel out of FILLY O' MINE

http://www.pedigreequery.com/white+beauty

Ky Colonel was chestnut by a Black Sire BALLADIER, and he sired blacks. So Ky Colonel was ee a? .

Filly o'mine was by the brown Holdall, out of a chestnut mare, but the mare had a third dam that was black, so her second dam was ?a, and her dam had a 50% chance of also carrying a.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/shirayukihime

Shirayukihime the white daughter of Sunday Silence a black.

Not Quite White

http://www.pedigreequery.com/not+quite+white

Out of a dkb/br mare, from a line of either brown or dkb/br horses.

And Clarence Stewart was by a brown sire.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/clarence+stewart


In these four cases the breeders were not breeding for color or contrast.

No, I don't think there is a mystical cosmic balance that needs to be maintained--black matching white. But there may be a connection between expression of white and Agouti status. Or Agouti is just a marker and there is something linked to Agouti that influences white expression in DW.


Xfactorfan,

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I agree with your assertion on the importance of the very dark Thoroughbreds. In fact Clarence Stewart had a black or near black full brother that also raced. When I began studying this topic it became quite clear that there was some friendly connection between black and whiteThoroughbred. Then I began unfolding their pedigrees and voila the black or near black Thoroughbreds began to appear. If a breeder wants to help increase the odds of producing a white Thoroughbred he/she must take into account the black Thoroughbreds and or high white leg markings, and or solitary white spots, and or noticeable white blazes, and or "roanings". Then zero-in on pedigrees with certain known ancestors, some of which are known for producing atypically phenotyped progeny (regardless their own phenotype). Then of course check for the Northern Dancers, the Halos. The rest are different details some of which are the result of "imagination" (unproven from a scientific standpoint) rather than knowlege. Last but not least, become an avid observer.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:14 am 
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By the way. Is there any known case of a gray Thoroughbred with blue eyes? In the case of Madame Couturie's blue eyed gray mare, it was a pony mare with unknown pedigree she had acquired named Fanny. She decided to cross her with Mont Blanc and obtain subsequent generations with more and more Thoroughbred blood, until finally inserting such a strain into the Breed, racing under the "Point-to-points" conditions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Not to my knowledge. Blue eyes are very rare, let alone on gray.

Sadly without photos of that filly and her parents they can't help me much.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:04 pm 
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accphotography wrote:
I've never seen a gray TB with blue eyes. In fact I've seen very, very few blue eyes TBs period. Blue eyes definitely add to the white component as they are caused by pinto genes.


Usually, blue eyes are associated with the splash gene, which can produce horses with enough white to qualify for pinto/paint registration. It's not truly a "pinto gene" like the one/ones that produce the tobiano pinto pattern.

It's probably rare in TBs primarily because there hasn't been a great stallion to spread it around. Gray was rare in TBs until The Tetrarch came along. Sabino was common enough but became even more so with the success of Northern Dancer.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:42 pm 
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Anything that has the capability of causing excessive white is considered a pinto gene in my book. I have never been a fan of calling tobiano "pinto". That's a miniature thing. In my book, it's tobiano, period.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:57 pm 
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Linda_d wrote:
It's not truly a "pinto gene" like the one/ones that produce the tobiano pinto pattern.
ImageImageImageImageImage

Splash is most CERTAINLY a pinto gene. This is most certainly "Pinto" LOL
Image

Tobiano is not "Tobiano pinto," It is Tobiano. It is a Pinto gene, yes as is any white pattern gene. But it is not "Tobiano Pinto."

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:58 pm 
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Are the other white patterns KIT mutations? I know Roan, DW, Sabino are all part of KIT.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:10 pm 
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xfactor fan wrote:
Are the other white patterns KIT mutations? I know Roan, DW, Sabino are all part of KIT.
Frame is 100% not, and Splash is thought/known to not be on KIT as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Any latest news on him?
MUSKETIER http://www.pedigreequery.com/musketier2


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:40 am 
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accphotography wrote:
I've never seen a gray TB with blue eyes. In fact I've seen very, very few blue eyes TBs period. Blue eyes definitely add to the white component as they are caused by pinto genes.


Blue Destiny is a bay with a broad blaze and blue eyes.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/blue+destiny

I remember seeing her win on the NYRA network and the commentators remarking on her eyes. And she has grays in her background, not sure what that all means.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Sailor Kenshin wrote:
accphotography wrote:
I've never seen a gray TB with blue eyes. In fact I've seen very, very few blue eyes TBs period. Blue eyes definitely add to the white component as they are caused by pinto genes.


Blue Destiny is a bay with a broad blaze and blue eyes.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/blue+destiny

I remember seeing her win on the NYRA network and the commentators remarking on her eyes. And she has grays in her background, not sure what that all means.


It comes from her dam. She has some siblings with flashy markings/eyes.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Hooray for MUSKETIER!
He certainly deserves the breeding shed.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/musketier2


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