New TB incentive program

Derby Lyn · Postby **Derby Lyn** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:35 pm

posted in general discussion, but also posting here because I know some color breeders are breeding for hunters, jumping and dressage and not racing.

http://www.tjctip.com/

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:58 am

Yet another reason to run the other way from a TB offered for sale/adoption but its papers are withheld...

Evenheaven · Postby **Evenheaven** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:34 am

So.... I read through all the information and honestly, as a show host, these classes do not cover what needs to be covered! I host dressage, hunter/jumper and mini events here at our farm as well as compete all over in these disciplines... plus, as you know, I've bred a couple pretty successful colored tb's in the sport world...... There is NO incentive for eventing.. why?!?!?!? SO many ottb's go into the eventing world. I understand the logistics - looks like everything has to be a separate class for this unlike APHA's PAC program or the AQHA alternative program where they earn points towards ROM through an alternative point system. I do not know if my dressage show would draw enough ottb's to make the point system worth while....I could see the hunter show a go... any other people's input would be greatly appreciated. I would be all about trying it in the 2012 show season at the shows my farm hosts, but how do we get already established shows like the IHJA, NIHJA or USEA or others who participate in the IDCTA to follow this????

Madelyn, all you have to do is flip the horse's lip and take down the tattoo... I think the information just needs to get out.....

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:39 am

Most tattoos become illegible; and there are quite a number of TB's who were never tattooed.

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:45 am

Also, this was in the information:

Eventing, Combined Training and Dressage

The Jockey Club Thoroughbred Incentive Program High Point
Thoroughbred Award will be given to the highest placing Thoroughbred in its
division under the host organization’s competition scoring.

The Jockey Club Thoroughbred Incentive Program High Point Young
Thoroughbred Award will be given to the highest placing Thoroughbred at the
competition (regardless of division) that is in its first or second year of showing.

Perhaps they need a little guidance on how to break that out further, but apparently they DO have something for eventing. I don't think that the Jockey Club means to bankroll new horse shows with this effort - I think it should be in supplement to whatever else is offered. They have not narrowed show eligibility - it seems like if you only held schooling shows you could apply to have these awards available..

Evenheaven · Postby **Evenheaven** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:51 am

After I read through the Application, it appears that they ARE awarding for eventing... just don't know how the USEA would even consider splitting divisions for just tb's.

I've had a TON of luck looking up only partial tattoos.... even when I looked up my 23 year old ottb - and the tattoo was rough at best, but went through all the markings (on top of it, he's grey) and found him!

IMHO... why don't the race owners just give the foal papers - I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but I personally have walked away from a really well bred tb mare because the "adoption home" said they were holding her papers, but would maybe be willing to bring them up to the RPSI inspection (since they need to see the papers to register with RPSI). I know the person running the adoption personally and her exact words to me were, "Well, Amber, they just want to make sure they are not raced." This person knows I retrain for sport and that's it. If they sucked as a race horse with x amount of different race trainers you really think a person who retrains for sport is going to even try?!?!? Sport horse trainers look at tb's so differently than the race world...... we try to see them with like 500 more pounds and a top line, etc...

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:00 am

Evenheaven wrote:....IMHO... why don't the race owners just give the foal papers - I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but I personally have walked away from a really well bred tb mare because the "adoption home" said they were holding her papers, but would maybe be willing to bring them up to the RPSI inspection (since they need to see the papers to register with RPSI). I know the person running the adoption personally and her exact words to me were, "Well, Amber, they just want to make sure they are not raced." This person knows I retrain for sport and that's it. If they sucked as a race horse with x amount of different race trainers you really think a person who retrains for sport is going to even try?!?!? Sport horse trainers look at tb's so differently than the race world...... we try to see them with like 500 more pounds and a top line, etc...

That is the very point I was trying to make. I've been burned in the past - a fellow GAVE me two mares. I sent a shipper to Missouri to pick up the mares and he neglected to insist on getting the papers. A while later. papers for one of the mares were sent to me.. a while after that the other mare became a graded stakes producer and this fellow surfaced, after FOUR YEARS and tried to claim ownership of the mare. But he couldn't have it both ways - if he owned one, he owned both, and to own the one he would have had to pay four years of expenses to me on both - eventually he went away.. I had all of the correspondence regarding his GIVING AWAY the mares.. one of the mares, supposed to be open, foaled and I paid the stud fee on that and sold the foal.. but it was something that I lost sleep and agonized over. Now I just flat out won't take a broodmare prospect without papers.

Every one who has ever had one of their OTTB's go through my hands has never had one show up on a track again. I am careful. But the horses go with their papers.

Derby Lyn · Postby **Derby Lyn** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:50 pm

What I don't understand is why don't people just call the JC and have the horse listed with them as non-racing? And then giving them the papers would not be an issue, and no one would have to worry about the horse racing again.

Evenheaven · Postby **Evenheaven** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:14 pm

That would make too much sense - which is a shame.... case in point: a horse I purchased off the track to retrain (he had a shameful race career) is now a 2 star eventer. Never got his papers or anything but he is AMAZING as a sport horse. Because I looked up his tattoo, I knew his JC name was Simple Billie but the person who has owned, trained and showed him and his USEA name is Chance of Flurries. It's a shame that the JC is not keeping track of these amazing athletes just because they are not good race horses.

Derby Lynn, I suppose it's the same as us both owning buckskin thoroughbreds but are registered bay?!?!?

Derby Lyn · Postby **Derby Lyn** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:25 pm

Oh nevermind, I read over the rules on the JC website again and more carefully. I didn't realize that if you sold the horse without pedigree then they are removed from the registry completely. Nice. I thought the JC was actually making sense for once. Yes Evenheaven, I guess its just like our buckskin bays.

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:34 am

This is an awkward issue for the Jockey Club. Marking on the papers "Not to be Raced" is defacing the papers. The Jockey Club, itself, does not have any way to "police" whether a horse races or not - only the stewards at a racetrack can do that. You then still have the issue that the horse is now someone else's "property" and they have the right of OWNERSHIP which means there is nothing to prevent them from taking that horse back to the track. In the case of geldings, papers are proof of registration, and proof of ownership, but aren't really REQUIRED for anything as long as the horse has a lip tattoo. However, they are "nice" to have and every event trainer who has bought a horse from me has always wanted them.

In the case of fillies and mares, though, papers are required for a lot of the regional breeding programs, and other registries like AQHA and Warmbloods.. So essentially withholding papers can sort of prevent a mare from being bred.

No matter which way you slice it, ownership rights are involved/infringed on by trying to have any organization, like the Jockey Club, enforce a "sale condition" made in a private sale.

Turning the horse's papers in to the Jockey Club and marking the horse "sold without pedigree" is the only absolute way to prevent a horse from being able to be raced. But also, then, the horse's tattoo would not come up, and the horse would not be eligible for any of the show awards for Thoroughbreds.. and a mare in this situation could not have her foals registered..

As I said, it is awkward. The way I have always gotten around it is to ONLY sell to non-racing homes. Period. In ten years or so of retraining and rehoming OTTB's, I have NEVER had one show up on a racetrack anywhere (and I have rehomed, literally, hundreds).

ak1 · Postby **ak1** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:58 pm

What has not been mentioned is the success failed flat racers have in the steeplechase/point to point/ timber racing arena. As you go up in levels from amateur owner/rider races to actual graded races the papers are going to be necessary.

Wouldn't you also want the official papers in the event of theft too? My college had a couple lesson horses stolen (OTTBs) who turned up at an auction a state away. They were recovered and were safe but I think a great deal of "lady luck" was at play. (one was your proverbial plain bay)