Spots in olden times

StayOutFront · Postby **StayOutFront** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:54 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/scien ... .html?_r=1

Not TBs, but interesting!

Jorge · Postby **Jorge** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:13 pm

Thanks for sharing this article. I remember reading somewhere some time ago that some ancient pictures show "Appaloosa"-like horses, which tends to suggest that said pattern was present in Europe or Asia previous to the examples seen and wisely reproduced in America.

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:56 am

There are Chinese paintings and scrolls with horses that are clearly appaloosa, the blanket pattern is unmistakable. The leopard pattern is a bit harder to make out, and could be dapples.

Pan Zareta · Postby **Pan Zareta** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:54 pm

Jorge wrote:I remember reading somewhere some time ago that some ancient pictures show "Appaloosa"-like horses, which tends to suggest that said pattern was present in Europe or Asia previous to the examples seen and wisely reproduced in America.

The cave paintings at Lascaux date to ~15K yrs ago and the horses depicted there are unambiguously Appy type. The LP allele was found in 6 of 31 ancient samples from western & eastern Europe, all pre-domestication (>5000 yrs. old).

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:07 am

Is the LP you refer to the same gene that the Appaloosa Project folks have been looking for? Or is it the Leopard spot gene, as opposed to the blanket pattern? I'm not currently up on whats going on in this area.

accphotography · Postby **accphotography** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:20 am

LP is the gene the Appaloosa Project found. It's the gene that causes characteristics and spots (but only in the presence of a PATN or extensive roaning). PATN is what causes the leopard, blanket patterns, etc., but only when LP is present.

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:13 pm

Yes, but what is the spotted gene that they are finding in ancient equines?

accphotography · Postby **accphotography** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:03 am

The same LP gene they are testing for in modern horses.

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:51 am

Well, if LP is the appy roan, then how come they are looking for spots? And claiming to find spots?

RiddleMeThis · Postby **RiddleMeThis** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:43 pm

xfactor fan wrote:Well, if LP is the appy roan, then how come they are looking for spots? And claiming to find spots?

Because there wouldn't be spots with LP.

LP and PATN are like E and A. You can have PATN (A) without LP(E), but you won't have spots(bay). Or you can have PATN (A) with LP(E),and you get spots (Bay).

LP alone usually just roans. PATN by itself gives you nothing. LP and PATN gives you roaning and spots.

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:25 pm

Just trying to make sense of the article at the top of this thread.

The authors seem to have found spots in ancient equine DNA, which match spots in current breeds of horses.

The question is what exactly are they finding? LP is roaning, not spots, Pattern or the Leopard pattern genes haven't been identified yet, so what are they looking for/at and finding in the samples? And if they have found a spotting gene, do the folks over at the Appaloosa Project know?

The photo in the article shows a full leopard pattern horse.

Here's the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/scien ... .html?_r=1

Pan Zareta · Postby **Pan Zareta** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:44 pm

xfactor fan wrote:Just trying to make sense of the article at the top of this thread.

The authors seem to have found spots in ancient equine DNA, which match spots in current breeds of horses.

The question is what exactly are they finding? LP is roaning, not spots, Pattern or the Leopard pattern genes haven't been identified yet, so what are they looking for/at and finding in the samples? And if they have found a spotting gene, do the folks over at the Appaloosa Project know?

They found one or more of the alleles associated with leopard complex spotting, i.e. leopard pattern (LP). Whether they actually had remains of hides that would offer evidence of phenotype I don't know. Haven't read the full article in PNAS yet.

I may be wrong but it's my understanding that LP produces the characteristic Appy roaning and/or spots, and PATN (as yet unidentified and may involve more than one gene) activates expression of LP over some or all of the body.

RiddleMeThis · Postby **RiddleMeThis** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:24 pm

xfactor fan wrote:The question is what exactly are they finding? LP is roaning, not spots

You can't have spots without LP.

so what are they looking for/at and finding in the samples? And if they have found a spotting gene, do the folks over at the Appaloosa Project know?

They are using LP. Its already found and being tested for at at least one lab.

summerhorse · Postby **summerhorse** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:12 pm

Pan Zareta wrote:
xfactor fan wrote:Just trying to make sense of the article at the top of this thread.

-snip-

I may be wrong but it's my understanding that LP produces the characteristic Appy roaning and/or spots, and PATN (as yet unidentified and may involve more than one gene) activates expression of LP over some or all of the body.

LP produces the roaning and characteristics and makes it possible for PATN to be expressed. But LP alone will not produce spots and it's expression may itself be quite minimal (like striping on solid legs, some sclera, maybe some mottling or maybe just sclera with some stray white hairs, etc. ) or quite loud, think almost white over time. What controls this has yet to be determined but it is believed there are genes that help either suppress or express color. And in some cases boost white patterns. If the horse only has PATN it will look solid.

But when a horse gets PATN from one parent and LP from another (sometimes seemingly solid parent) presto, crop out.

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:41 am

So what they have found in the ancient DNA is evidence of appy style roaning, not spots. And the folks doing the research are making the leap that if the LP gene is present, then so are the spots?

Looks like the Appaloosa Project folks have made another set of converts.

For those who don't follow other breeds, the Appaloosa Project folks have been investigating how the Appaloosa pattern is transmitted, and using a combination of pedigree/phenotype research, and lab work, figured that it is at least two different genes. One (LP) controls roaning, striped hooves, eyes, freckles. The other gene(s) PATN, is the white blanket with spots. Non linked genes. So a horse can have one or the other, or both. Just like producing a bay horse.

The old guard Appaloosa folks have been fighting this tooth and nail, much howling. There was even a long article in the Appaloosa breed journal explaining how the information on the internet was wrong, and this is how it really works.

It has been interesting to watch (from a safe distance)

What may have interest to color breeders in TB's, is that there are findings suggesting that LP can exist in a very, very minimal form. So minimal that the horse looks completely solid.

Would be nice to test some of those rare TB's that have the white rimmed eye and stripped hooves for LP and see what comes back now that there is a test.