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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:09 am 
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Due to my two Buckskin TB colts, Sand und Gold born 2008 and Kalando born 2010 and TCF Palladium now in Germany, the German JC is putting in a demand for Buckskin and Smoky Cream by the coming International Convention. So after this there should then be two more colors available to US breeders too. :P

The convention is held end of September as per the information I got.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:45 am 
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Isnt THAT great news!

I know that you pushed through palomino being accepted - would now be wonderful if buckskin and smoky cream could be added in!

Then all that is is cremello and perlino and everything will be covered!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:40 am 
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You can already ask for Cremello, when Alchemist was imported, the German JC instantly had him DNA and color typed and added Cremello into their data base. His kids - oldest born 2008 - do already have him listed as RFF The Alchemist - color cremello. Since the color is legal now for TBs, USA MUST follow this. Someone must just make them aware of the new rules!

As of now Smoky Cream and Buckskin will be put forward in September and as soon as I do have a Perlino or Smoky Black, I will go forward for those too, then all colors are covered for the cream gene.

The mares Padrama and Shew have been classified as White without any hassle and the Frame Overo has been accepted too.

It is just that you guys over there must push the JC for following the rules! They cannot deny the accepted colorings if they are accepted by the International Conventions.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:09 am 
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Just got told that the German JC director already spoke to the chief of the TB Associations and he said that Buckskin is accepted, so only the smoky cream must go through.

They asked me when the "remaining colors" will be put forward and if I "am working on them". Then we have the full pallet of the Cream Gene Colors available.

So I need a Smoky Black and a Perlino, then it is all done.

For now, Palomino, Buckskin and Cremello are agreed and should be available as colors to all other JC Associations too.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:56 pm 
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Any possibility on adding the Appaloosas or Champagnes through the "Points-to-Points" program?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:55 am 
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I spoke to the American registrar on buckskin about 6 months ago and he said while he was aware that it was an accepted colour, they had no intention of adding it anytime soon to their colour choices

*IF* buckskin TB's were showing up at the track to race, they might consider it, but theyre not and he waid for the time and money it would cost to add it in, they have "0" interest in doing so at this time

Im sure cremello, perlino and all the rest of the colours will be the same. Until a bunch of them start running and cause confusion, they will not consder any changes

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:06 am 
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Jorge wrote:
Any possibility on adding the Appaloosas or Champagnes through the "Points-to-Points" program?


this would take years to breed up to have a pure TB with that pattern/color and would need someone who finds this of interest. I do not.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:07 am 
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TrueColours wrote:
I spoke to the American registrar on buckskin about 6 months ago and he said while he was aware that it was an accepted colour, they had no intention of adding it anytime soon to their colour choices

*IF* buckskin TB's were showing up at the track to race, they might consider it, but theyre not and he waid for the time and money it would cost to add it in, they have "0" interest in doing so at this time

Im sure cremello, perlino and all the rest of the colours will be the same. Until a bunch of them start running and cause confusion, they will not consder any changes


This is not right of them, as they have to follow the rules of the mother stud book. So they MUST put in the correct color without any additional money.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:40 am 
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But Gwen - I dont think there is a "mother" stud book for the Jockey Clubs - globally. Each one operates independantly of the others in the respective area they cover.

If the German Stud Book allows AI, or Embryo Transfers, etc I dont believe that any other stud book in the world "HAS" to allow it just because Germany chose to do so

Same with colours. Until and at which point in time calling a buckskin horse "bay" causes so much confusion and so many problems they dont want to have to deal with them any more, they dont *HAVE* to add buckskin to anythng. If left up to the discretion of the Board of Directors for each Jockey Club what they choose to do

Now maybe if there is another convention this coming fall, the American Jockey Club will come under pressure to add them and may choose to do so

We can only hope ...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:35 am 
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The colors Palomino, Cremello, Buckskin have already been accepted by the International Convention and since that is the INTERNATIONAL rules it has to be followed by ALL International Jockey Clubs round the world. It is not a German thing.

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 Post subject: adding new colors
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:03 pm 
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I received a phone call earlier this spring from a very polite and professional individual from the American Jockey Club on the question of adding a color. In response to a letter I had written for the Jockey Club to consider adding the color buckskin, it was explained to me that it comes down to need vs. cost. After a nice long chat, the gentleman I spoke with left me with a better understanding of why the industry can't just give us what we want, when we want it. It seems that the question of adding a color is reviewed and the decision is based on need.
It appears that adding a new color forces the need to update numerous forms, softwares, and various other things not only at the Jockey Club, but also at the race tracks, sales, and all things that have to do with the Jockey Club and the race industry. Furthermore, he said that to date there haven't been enough, if any, confusions at race tracks over the identity of a horse entered in a race because he is buckskin, not bay. Anyone out there have the $$ and the proven pedigree to send their young buckskin to the track and help us get this pushed through? A buckskin can look like a light bay, a sunbleached bay or in the darker version, a seal brown. Now I know most of us can tell the difference, and proudly explain that our genetics lab would certainly disagree with them. A Palomino and a cremello look nothing like a chestnut, but many buckskins could pass a a light bay or seal brown. An increasing number of light and obvious buckskins showing up at the starting gate and very clearly not matching the description of "Bay" on their entry paperwork, and causing a real question of this being the horse entered in the race would speed up the process of getting the color added. So even though I didn't get the answer I had hoped for in my petition for the color Buckskin to be added, I'm writing this to share the explanation that I was given "straight from the horse's mouth". Nothing negative directed at you at all, Gwen. Was really nice of you to let us know that it may be coming sooner that later. :D But in the past I've read posts here that seem so unprofessional and disrespectful of the Jockey Club, simply because they didn't jump for someone who wanted a color added or changed or whatever. The Jockey Club isn't the APHA or the PHBA or ABRA- they don't care if the horse is purple. They list the horse's color on the papers along with white markings, cowlicks, tattoos,
etc. purely in an attempt to make sure the horse on the paper is the same horse in the starting gate. I know most of the readers who have raced a Tb or are actively involved in the industry understand that, but some may come across posts about the Jockey Club and this issue and get the impression that they are difficult. From my experience they are anything but. Gwen, thanks so much for posting this. I'm sure they will take notice and if it is finally time, they will add the colors we're all hoping for. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:48 pm 
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framed -that is EXACTLY the response I got as well. Nothing has changed and it doesnt appear if anything WILL be changing either in the near future

We can always hope but I think its still years away for us here in North America

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Buckskins were running decades ago but I guess they just didn't care if the bay was kind of "off". Idiots.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:43 am 
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And to think that the system already had properly added the more radical "Dun" coat color as one of the officially accepted colors!

Evidence: the book "Sires of American Thoroughbreds" (Published by The Blood Horse -- April 1968 ed.). This book was published based on the records of The American Stud Book. On this book there are two sires whose official color is "Dun". I am referrring to WISE ABE (dun, 1939, by Wise Sir out of MissMontez, by Polroma) and TY TIME (dun, 1949, by Band Time out of Opal Smith, by Barney Lucas).

Not to even mention the huge number of sires officially registered with stranger nomenclatures such as "red gray"; "steel gray"; "iron gray"; "dark gray"; "light gray"; "brown or gray"; "black or gray"; "chestnut or gray"; "gray roan"; "strawberry roan"; "chestnut roan"; "blue roan"; "red roan"; "bright bay"; "light bay"; "dark bay"; "dark chestnut"; "light chestnut"; "red chestnut" just to mention a few. Go figure paper work costs in a time when there were so many independent lineages as opposed to today's uniformity with the Northern Dancers, Mr. Prospectors, etc.

I think this issue must be addressed more factually than from any other
perspective. Remember that today we are moving within the era of informatics where paper cost is enroute to becoming obsolete.
What is happening!


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 Post subject: Re: adding new colors
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:47 am 
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framed wrote:
I received a phone call earlier this spring from a very polite and professional individual from the American Jockey Club on the question of adding a color. In response to a letter I had written for the Jockey Club to consider adding the color buckskin, it was explained to me that it comes down to need vs. cost. After a nice long chat, the gentleman I spoke with left me with a better understanding of why the industry can't just give us what we want, when we want it. It seems that the question of adding a color is reviewed and the decision is based on need.
It appears that adding a new color forces the need to update numerous forms, softwares, and various other things not only at the Jockey Club, but also at the race tracks, sales, and all things that have to do with the Jockey Club and the race industry. Furthermore, he said that to date there haven't been enough, if any, confusions at race tracks over the identity of a horse entered in a race because he is buckskin, not bay. Anyone out there have the $$ and the proven pedigree to send their young buckskin to the track and help us get this pushed through? A buckskin can look like a light bay, a sunbleached bay or in the darker version, a seal brown. Now I know most of us can tell the difference, and proudly explain that our genetics lab would certainly disagree with them. A Palomino and a cremello look nothing like a chestnut, but many buckskins could pass a a light bay or seal brown. An increasing number of light and obvious buckskins showing up at the starting gate and very clearly not matching the description of "Bay" on their entry paperwork, and causing a real question of this being the horse entered in the race would speed up the process of getting the color added. So even though I didn't get the answer I had hoped for in my petition for the color Buckskin to be added, I'm writing this to share the explanation that I was given "straight from the horse's mouth". Nothing negative directed at you at all, Gwen. Was really nice of you to let us know that it may be coming sooner that later. :D But in the past I've read posts here that seem so unprofessional and disrespectful of the Jockey Club, simply because they didn't jump for someone who wanted a color added or changed or whatever. The Jockey Club isn't the APHA or the PHBA or ABRA- they don't care if the horse is purple. They list the horse's color on the papers along with white markings, cowlicks, tattoos,
etc. purely in an attempt to make sure the horse on the paper is the same horse in the starting gate. I know most of the readers who have raced a Tb or are actively involved in the industry understand that, but some may come across posts about the Jockey Club and this issue and get the impression that they are difficult. From my experience they are anything but. Gwen, thanks so much for posting this. I'm sure they will take notice and if it is finally time, they will add the colors we're all hoping for. :wink:


I think this is just all together a lie to avoid to do it. BUT once all colors of the cream gene are through, which is just two more needed, then you should put pressure on them as then there can only come "new colors" IF someone decides to breed Champagne or spots up to the level of having a full TB pedigree which will need loooooong.

The European TB racing industry is big too but the JC in USA has certainly many more diluted TBs to demand the correct color be in there and I am sure it costs the same amount of money here than there to change forms and to be honest it is just moment of doing a new pdf or doc file for online use! That is totally nonsense in my eyes.

I will ask the JC over here why they can deny to do the follow up with International Conventions rules.

WHAT would happen if someone imports a Frame Overo, Buckskin or Cremello from over here? Latest then they MUST do the change!

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