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 Post subject: Pedigrees for Blacks?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:35 am 
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We are heading to the CTHS Mixed Sale on Saturday and are considering buying for the chance (when breeding next year) to get black offspring. What lines should we be looking at to narrow things down? Thanks PQ gurus! :)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:10 am 
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First thing to look at is genetic testing.

A black horse has two different sets of gene to look at:

Base coat color: The two choices are black, or red. E is black, e is red
(the letters come from mice coat colors--so blame the mice if it doesn't make sense)

So a horse could be EE black base coat
or Ee, also black base coat
or ee red basecoat.

To make life complicated the second set of genes modify the base coat color. Agouti (also something to blame on the mice) ONLY works on a black base coat.

The dominant form of Agouti (A) pushes the black color to the outer edges of the horse and results in a bay.

The recessive form of Agouti doesn't change the base coat color and is written as a.

So a black horse could be: Ee aa, or EE aa

The other thing to consider is that Agouit only works on black base coats, so a chestnut horse could carry the recessive form and pass it on to the next generation.

If you haven't tested the mare, you should probably get her tested. A mare that carries two copies of the dominant Agouti gene (AA) is never going to produce a black foal.

The genetic testing can be done quite a few places these days--UC Davis would be a good place to start.

Things to look for in the stallion:

What is his coat color?
Has he ever produced a black foal?
Has he ever produced a chestnut?
Are all black based foal bay?

Hope this helps, and good luck.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:17 am 
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Thanks for that info, xff. We already know about the testing...in fact, have had two true black mares, that we just sold. We are more interested in names of sires, mares, that would be in a pedigree that would point more toward a mare being black (but wrongly registered), or producing black.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:13 pm 
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I believe Devil His Due may actually be black and has produced blacks.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Halo line. Sunday Silence, and of course Panoramic who is with Donna at True Colours in Canada. Maybe for not much longer.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Indeed Devil His Due, Halo, Sunday Silence, but also some Wild Again, St. Ballado, Theatrical is possible (he carried an 'a' for sure), hmmm who else? I know there are more. Speightstown apparently carries at least one 'a' (he has a known black offspring). I don't know for certain, but I strongly suspect Bellamy Road may carry an 'a' (I've seen some foals of his that could very well be black).

Something else worth maybe keeping in mind is that you may have a better chance with browns than with bays. While a bay CAN carry an 'a' and a brown CAN be homozygous agouti, you have a slightly higher chance of there being an 'a' in a brown than in a bay. That's due to the fact that if a horse is brown you KNOW it doesn't carry the bay allele so it is either homozygous brown or it DOES have an 'a'. With a bay it could be hiding a brown and you would never know. One thing that may be of help is that it is strongly theorized and supported that homozygous browns will be lighter and more bay looking than heterozygous brown. In other words the darker the horse is the more likely there may be an 'a' under there.

There are two 'AtAt' examples here that show that well compared to the 'Ata's.

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com ... f46448.jpg

Hope that helps!!

If I can think of more before then I'll come back.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Isn't Guarenteed Gold also carrying at least one a?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Yes he is. I don't know that she'll find anything related to him at that sale though. GG is Ata.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:58 am 
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accphotography wrote:
Something else worth maybe keeping in mind is that you may have a better chance with browns than with bays. While a bay CAN carry an 'a' and a brown CAN be homozygous agouti, you have a slightly higher chance of there being an 'a' in a brown than in a bay. That's due to the fact that if a horse is brown you KNOW it doesn't carry the bay allele so it is either homozygous brown or it DOES have an 'a'. With a bay it could be hiding a brown and you would never know. One thing that may be of help is that it is strongly theorized and supported that homozygous browns will be lighter and more bay looking than heterozygous brown. In other words the darker the horse is the more likely there may be an 'a' under there.

There are two 'AtAt' examples here that show that well compared to the 'Ata's.

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com ... f46448.jpg

Hope that helps!!

If I can think of more before then I'll come back.


Let me see if I have this correct about browns, bays, and blacks ...

AA = bay, no chance of black
Aa = bay, chance of black
AtA = bay, no chance of black
Ata = brown, chance of black
AtAt = brown, no chance of black
aa = black or chestnut, chance of black

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:15 am 
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Eblouissante, Zenyatta's 1/2 sister, sure looks black in her pics. That would add Bernardini/AP Indy lines to possible blacks.

http://www.drf.com/news/hollywood-park-zenyattas-half-sister-makes-long-awaited-debut

http://www.pedigreequery.com/eblouissante5

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:02 pm 
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That's correct! I'm impressed! :D

Sadly Eblouissante isn't black. She's about as close as they come but she isn't. She's a case that very well might carry a black though as she seems too dark to be AtAt.

You can see the brown on her muzzle in this photo:
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a ... 7849_n.jpg

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:19 am 
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Matricule, Prince Stanley both black. Arctic Blue by Panoramic genetically tested to have a black base coat colour. Avies Copy I am fairly certain was black - my Copy the Roses mare was for sure

Rather Well is black (pretty certain???), and Yellow Creek is for sure

And Panoramic has been sold and has left, so he is no longer an option in North America

Oh - Princely Fire in TN is also black but dont think there would be anything by him in the sale at all

I do know of a lovely bay mare (17hh) that is in foal to Panoramic that is for sale. Very nice pedigree, winnings of 125,000 - let me know if she might work for you and I'll put you in contact with her owner

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:05 am 
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Rather Well is brown. The others, to my knowledge, are black.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:30 pm 
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Wasn't Pirates Bounty black? Definitely Slew lines, believe Swale was pretty dark if not black.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:50 pm 
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Swale was brown sadly. Not that it matters I guess.

I've seen some Arch blacks.

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