Back to Pedigree Query
It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:32 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Overo Thoroughbreds
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 8:31 am 
Offline
Yearling

Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:57 pm
Posts: 66
I've definitely been a fan of overo thoroughbreds for years now, but I want to know why racehorse owners never introduce color to their pedigrees. Of course, it is a chancy option, but even breeding to a champion won't guarantee an amazing foal. Would you rather have an amazing racer that looks like any other, or one that pops out on the field? Something that will really wow the crowd? I just don't understand why we don't give the colored guys a shot -- there are a select few that have okay bloodlines. Getting a colored horse on the track will introduce the jockey club with 'exotic' colors, to them at least, and might get them to register horses by what they truly are, no matter how more unique the patterns or dilutions. Until we get more colors on the track, no one can blame the jockey club for sticking with the main coats; they don't know any better. Those solid coats are the only ones running on the tracks. Someone with the money has to step up and try out some sires, like what they did in the 1900's. Our greatest champions, sometime in their pedigrees, have had non-racers as sires, or poor racers as dams...you never know what you are going to get based on the pedigree. Assumptions can be made, but human error is sure to occur. Take a look at Seabiscuit: he was sold as a claimer.

On the bright side, a covering from a colored thoroughbred will cost a mere $1,000.
That is a cup of coffee for a champion horse's owner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 8:39 am 
Offline
Grade I Winner
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:54 am
Posts: 1595
People who breed racehorses are worried about breeding a winner.
50% chance of doing that.

Why on earth would anyone want to pay the upkeep of about $40,000 a year so the have a funny coloured horse that can't run.

This idea of yours must be up there along with recycling toilet paper.

_________________
Edited by Moderator


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 8:44 am 
Offline
Yearling

Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:57 pm
Posts: 66
Why would people pay $40,000 for a horse that is solid colored and can't run? That is something they have to chance upon whether they breed to a colored or solid colored horse. And technically, the sire contributes 40% to the foal, the mare contributes 60%. Now, what characteristics are provided by the mare and stallion are unknown, so I am not guaranteeing a flashy winner, but if no one tries, no one will know. Some of the best race horses come from nobodies, and some of the nobodies are grandsires and granddams of champions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 4:27 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
I think that it has something to do with some of the content
of the following articles: (which I am extracting from the following thread:
“Excellent Articles for Our Readers” http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... hp?t=22298 )


EXCELLENT ARTICLES FOR OUR READERS:

http://www.apha.com/breed/pdf/ToveroDec97.pdf

http://www.apha.com/breed/lethalwhites01.html

http://www.apha.com/breed/lethalwhites03.html

http://www.apha.com/breed/lethalwhites02.html


"Foal with Overo Lethal White Syndrome Born
to a Registered Quarter Horse Mare" (Article) by Tamara Lightbody
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 23p715.pdf

Another great article:
http://www.painthorsejournal.com/archiv ... -Mar04.pdf
Don't miss to also check blue pages 148 and 149


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:34 pm 
Offline
Yearling

Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:57 pm
Posts: 66
Lethal whites aren't produced unless a horse receives two frame genes, so just avoid crossing frame with frame. If bred to a horse with no frame gene, all frames have the chance at passing the frame gene (max or min expressed) at an average of 50% of the time. Now, Remarquez has a higher than 50% pass rate on the frame gene, but there are many with lower than 50% pass rates; it all averages out. If you solve a punnett square crossing a frame overo (nO) and a non-overo horse (nn), you will get a 50% chance of the frame, and 50% chance of non-frame. That is where I get my calculation.

The phenotype doesn't matter in a frame overo for breeding purposes; you have to look at what the horse produces. That is where people trip up. If you are going to choose a colored stallion for breeding, you have to take a look at his get. (referring to coffee again...) Deciding to breed to a maximum expressed frame or a minimum expressed frame for breeding purposes is like choosing a white cup of coffee or black cup of coffee; unless someone has taken a sip, then both cups of coffee are filled about the same amount (due to human error, one glass will be filled more than the other). In other words, if most of the maximum expressed stallion's foals are non-frame due to the stallion's weaker tendency to produce loudly colored foals, you might have better luck with the minimum expressed stallion (or vice-versa).

The frame gene isn't hard to deal with. If you know the overo pattern, it will be easy to tell, based on markings, whether the horse is overo or not. If you are ever unsure, spend the $25 or so and get your horse tested.

Also, when breeding frame to frame, lethal whites don't always occur.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:44 am 
Offline
Allowance Winner

Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:28 am
Posts: 436
Location: Germany
Recently one of our best German race horse trainers has bought a frame overo yearling at an auction for 12000 Euro and he will certainly train that one to run.

_________________
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabs


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:30 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
color wrote:
Recently one of our best German race horse trainers has bought a frame overo yearling at an auction for 12000 Euro and he will certainly train that one to run.


Can you share the name and pedigree of this very interesting case?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Overo Thoroughbreds
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:42 am 
Offline
Starters Handicap

Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 547
Location: Jamestown, NY
MattieCat wrote:
I've definitely been a fan of overo thoroughbreds for years now, but I want to know why racehorse owners never introduce color to their pedigrees. Of course, it is a chancy option, but even breeding to a champion won't guarantee an amazing foal. Would you rather have an amazing racer that looks like any other, or one that pops out on the field? Something that will really wow the crowd? I just don't understand why we don't give the colored guys a shot -- there are a select few that have okay bloodlines. Getting a colored horse on the track will introduce the jockey club with 'exotic' colors, to them at least, and might get them to register horses by what they truly are, no matter how more unique the patterns or dilutions. Until we get more colors on the track, no one can blame the jockey club for sticking with the main coats; they don't know any better. Those solid coats are the only ones running on the tracks. Someone with the money has to step up and try out some sires, like what they did in the 1900's. Our greatest champions, sometime in their pedigrees, have had non-racers as sires, or poor racers as dams...you never know what you are going to get based on the pedigree. Assumptions can be made, but human error is sure to occur. Take a look at Seabiscuit: he was sold as a claimer.

On the bright side, a covering from a colored thoroughbred will cost a mere $1,000.
That is a cup of coffee for a champion horse's owner.


The number of unraced stallions that become successful race sires has always been tiny. The number of unraced mares from nondescript breeding that produce lots of stakes winners is very limited. As you noted yourself, even horses from impeccable lineages, can be duds. Breeding duds to duds or breeding good performers to duds isn't likely to increase your chances of getting a successful race horse.

Look at the horses that are winning graded stakes races: they all have stakes winning horses peppered throughout the first three generations of their pedigrees. Even more modest race horses have successful race horses/race producers in their close up pedigrees. If you want to breed a race horse, your best shot is to breed race horses to race horses, or race horse producing sires to race horse producing dams or some combination.

Plain and simple, the individuals that are noted for producing the most color, either white or dilute, are not from successful race horse producing lines. Most colored TBs are NOT successful racers and few have successful race horse producing sires or dams. So, the stallions are NOT going to attract the best race producing mares, and those colored mares are NOT likely to be bred to top stallions -- or even lesser racing stallions.

There's a whole lot more grays among top class TBs today than there were in the 19th century primarily because of the success of The Tetrarch back in early 20th century. There's a lot more white coloring in top class TBs today, primarily loud sabino markings, because of Northern Dancer and many of his descendents.

If some leading sire produces an outstanding overo colt out of a stakes producing mare and that colt burns up the track and then retires to a successful stud career in Kentucky, that's how overo TBs will become common on race tracks -- providing he passes on his overo markings with some regularity.

_________________
"you cannot be brilliant if you cannot run" -- bdw0617


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:09 pm 
Offline
Yearling

Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:57 pm
Posts: 66
Not one of the leading sires will ever produce an overo, not unless new blood is introduced with the dam; they are all solid, they all have the same bland coat. A lot of people are complaining that the jockey club needs to accept new colors, but no one is acting on it. The bottom line is, if no one is willing to get some patterns and dilutions in some racers, then no one has the right to complain.

I understand that the chances are higher crossing champion with champion, and you are right; you are more likely to get a successful racer from champions. Although, only a few are as good or better than their sire. You most likely won't get a horse nearly as good. Say, if the sire was a G1 winner, you might get a G2 or G3 winner, but I'll be damned if you get an amazing G1 champion. There are colored guys out there that do have decent bloodlines. I know Remarquez has Native Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Hail To Reason, Buckpasser, and more nice blood; someone just needs the right mare. Besides, just because a horse is non-raced doesn't mean it is a dud -- it could have been a stakes winner on the track, but just not given a chance. Duds, in my opinion, are those who have proven to be unsuccessful, of which many I have seen in Native Dancer's pedigree.

Interestingly enough, Remarquez didn't inherit his color passing from Native Dancer. His dam has Raise a Native in her bloodlines, but I doubt she was sabino. Remarquez got the color from his sire, both frame and sabino. His father was not of Native Dancer blood.

Since we are bringing up Native Dancer, let us look at his bloodlines. From the mare Geisha: 11 starts, 1 win, 3 places, 1 show. NOT successful at all. She won 9% of the time.

From the stallion Polynesian: 58 starts, 27 wins, 10 places, 10 shows. Not bad, but not perfect. He probably deserves more credit than I have given him, but compared to today's stallions, he isn't champion quality. About 10 races he placed lower in. He won 47% of the time.

Let us look at Polynesian's dam and sire.
Unbreakable (sire): 14 starts, 5 wins, 3 places, 2 shows. He would probably be avoided in today's racing stud stock. He won 36% of the time.

Black Polly (dam): 3 starts, 1 win, 0 places, 0 shows. I wouldn't say she's too amazing either, yet they produced a nearly undefeated racer, yet they produced a champion winning races into the double digits and still holding onto his winning streak for a good while. She won 33% of the time.

Looking at Geisha's parents, we see the stallion Discovery: 63 starts, 27 wins, 10 places, 10 shows. Again, this guy needs improvement. He won only 43% of the time.

The dam of Geisha, Miyako, had the record of: 32 starts, 5 wins, 7 places, 5 shows. She won 16% of the time.

Native Dancer won 96% of the time.

If you look even further back, you will see more of these so called 'duds' 'peppered' throughout his pedigree. I don't mean to be rood, but my point should be clear by now; it doesn't always depend on the blood; in fact, it depends on the personality. There are physical advantages a horse could acquire from dam and/or sire; maybe long legs, or greater lung capacity. If a horse wants to run, no matter how long its legs are, or how short he/she is, the horse has an amazing tendency to be successful. A racer needs drive, not from a whip, but from inside. Although conformation cannot be changed (unless re-positioning bones), lungs can grow and hearts can pump faster if given appropriate amount of vitamins, minerals, water, and exercise. What's on the inside truly does matter.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:26 pm 
Offline
Grade III Winner
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:42 pm
Posts: 1068
Location: You can't get there from here.
MattieCat wrote:
Not one of the leading sires will ever produce an overo, not unless new blood is introduced with the dam; they are all solid, they all have the same bland coat. A lot of people are complaining that the jockey club needs to accept new colors, but no one is acting on it. The bottom line is, if no one is willing to get some patterns and dilutions in some racers, then no one has the right to complain.


I don't think any of the folks in the upper tiers of the industry (like the ones who stand those leading sires) are are the ones doing the complaining though. When a young stallion who burned up the track is syndicated for a few million bucks, no one cares what color he is. It's an industry and the money is going to go to the fast and successful, not to the prettiest wrapper.

Unfortunately, all the horses you listed (Native Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Hail To Reason, Buckpasser) are extremely common in the Modern Thoroughbred. Remarquez's color is lovely and he's a very handsome guy, but he doesn't scream racehorse in the more recent parts of his pedigree.

What it's going to take is someone who has a disposable income and the willingness and patience to gradually develop a line of horses who can eventually meet the performance and the color criteria you want so much to see. Lightning might strike, but more likely it would take generations of very careful selection to get to that point.

It would be neat to see though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:33 pm 
Offline
Restricted Stakes Winner
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:03 am
Posts: 996
I agree ^ and that's pretty much what I said on the other thread. You worded it better though. :lol:

_________________
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:32 pm 
Offline
Breeder's Cup Winner

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:46 pm
Posts: 2212
The best bred color TB's in the world are the white--DW Sunday Silence's. They are being bred as racehorses. Followed by the Patchen Wilks runners. Decent family, and mostly bred to decent sires.
Pretty much everything else has found homes in sporthorse, or show horse homes.

Glitter Please, has an interesting story if you read between the lines. Bred as a racehorse, he was diverted to a show home pretty much as soon as it was clear he was a palomino. (After shedding his foal coat) Given what a great athlete he was in dressage, Ive always wondered what he would have been like as a racehorse.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Overo Thoroughbreds
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:36 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
Linda_d wrote:
The number of unraced stallions that become successful race sires has always been tiny. The number of unraced mares from nondescript breeding that produce lots of stakes winners is very limited. As you noted yourself, even horses from impeccable lineages, can be duds. Breeding duds to duds or breeding good performers to duds isn't likely to increase your chances of getting a successful race horse.

Look at the horses that are winning graded stakes races: they all have stakes winning horses peppered throughout the first three generations of their pedigrees. Even more modest race horses have successful race horses/race producers in their close up pedigrees. If you want to breed a race horse, your best shot is to breed race horses to race horses, or race horse producing sires to race horse producing dams or some combination.

Plain and simple, the individuals that are noted for producing the most color, either white or dilute, are not from successful race horse producing lines. Most colored TBs are NOT successful racers and few have successful race horse producing sires or dams. So, the stallions are NOT going to attract the best race producing mares, and those colored mares are NOT likely to be bred to top stallions -- or even lesser racing stallions.

There's a whole lot more grays among top class TBs today than there were in the 19th century primarily because of the success of The Tetrarch back in early 20th century. There's a lot more white coloring in top class TBs today, primarily loud sabino markings, because of Northern Dancer and many of his descendents.

If some leading sire produces an outstanding overo colt out of a stakes producing mare and that colt burns up the track and then retires to a successful stud career in Kentucky, that's how overo TBs will become common on race tracks -- providing he passes on his overo markings with some regularity.


Linda_d

Oh my goodness, thank you so much for writing those solid words of great wisdom. I totally agree with you and I am sure many of us do agree. In my opinion, those words ought to be well remembered by anyone trying to achieve a time-trascending successful product of phenotype, for the present and for the future. Once again, congratulations!

I agree so much with "Linda_d" and her brilliant concise dictum that I
have decided to copy-paste some relevant added historical information I once wrote under the following thread:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/post ... e&p=210788


Jorge wrote:

Thanks Donna for bringing up this issue.

When I ponder on what it takes to a rare color to become mainstream it is important to relate to the trajectory once followed by the gray coat color.

The gray coat color was among the founders of the Thoroughbred breed but it took nearly 200 years until the appearance of a genuine top notch talented runner like champion The Tetrarch (gray H 1911) in order to catapult his phenotype into common spotlight, regardless of its coat color.

Even when this first echelon was achieved, this alone was not sufficient. It was necessary to wait until the appearance of a prepotent gray lineage of the caliber of Mahmoud (gray horse 1933) to really see effervescence on the gray color ---thanks to the many gray broodmares he produced. A couple of generations later, many good gray horses, mainly coming via good gray broodmares began tilting the scale in favor of the appearance of extraordinary gray champions like the ones we are accustomed seeing today. If you want to verify what I am saying, just go to the historical racing charts of the K-P-B participants and you will see a constant increase of so-so grays, then excellent ones, and their achievements, decade by decade. This comes as no surprise.

It is my opinion that in order for the whites, perlinos, and cremellos, to achieve top-notch standing, regardless of their color, we have to pinpoint and promote their exposure towards racing careers. Seeking to link our rare colored Thoroughbreds to the best racing lineages of the world and hoping for a Mahmoud factor to appear.

Jumping, dressage and other similar careers are really quite meritorious activities which we all should encourage with kind enthusiasm, because it is an important and necessary life support medicine. But for the sake of exponentially blossoming the endeavors of coat color breeding, in my opinion there is no shortcut but to aim directly to the top of the racing pyramid (namely, successful racing careers) and from there disseminate through the air all your phenotypical seeds (diseminate these rare coat colors) and then every step of the pyramid (all the different horse activities) will be influenced by these colors and the "maize" will grow..

Right now there is a living example that proves my point. It is the white filly YUKICHAN, recent winner of a Grade 2 Oaks race in Japan. Yukichan is a daughter of Shirayukihime, an unexpected white daughter of the perennial top-notch Japanese stallion, Sunday Silence. Since Shirayukihime was reagally bred from a meritorious racing family, she was sent to another reagally bred sire and track record holder named Kurofune to be bred. The produce was YUKICHAN. You can be sure that YUKICHAN will visit all the best breeding sheds in her country and most probably, if properly guided, her breeding influence will remain available and ready to extend for future generation. Not all our white Thoroughbreds are so blessed, but there is a good chance that YUKICHAN will promote her coat color and assist the rest of all white Thoroughbreds in exponential terms. But only God knows.

In short rare coat colors need to achieve 3 steps:

01. The appearance of an unusually good talented runner
02. The subsequent appearance of a profilic broodmare sire coming from the cited talented runner
03. The exponential appearance of many talented runners (future sires) coming from the daughters and descendants of the prolific broodmare sire.

In the meantime, we are all very proud of the extraordinary efforts breeders like you and many others are devoting to the production of rare phenotyped Thoroughbreds. Right now, we are very fortunate to witness the existance of some of the finest examples you and others are producing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:19 am 
Offline
Allowance Winner

Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:28 am
Posts: 436
Location: Germany
Jorge wrote:
color wrote:
Recently one of our best German race horse trainers has bought a frame overo yearling at an auction for 12000 Euro and he will certainly train that one to run.


Can you share the name and pedigree of this very interesting case?



http://www.turf-times.de/tt-artikel/hof ... nsport-spa

_________________
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabs


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:27 am 
Offline
Allowance Winner

Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:28 am
Posts: 436
Location: Germany
he will have his first race tomorrow, just found that on a forum:

http://www.galopponline.de/service/news ... a&id=26692

_________________
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabs


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group