Back to Pedigree Query
It is currently Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:59 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:05 am 
Offline
Restricted Stakes Winner

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:57 pm
Posts: 905
Location: Ohio
ILL CALL HIM A BAY ROAN :wink: Years ago my friend had a andalusian/TB mare. her sire was gray and her dam was bay. Celebrity never greyed out but had significant roaning throughout her coat and a skunk tail, looked alot like Lucky Chappy. No one will ever convince me the roan gene doesnt exist in TBs somewhere and some day the JC will recognize a true "roan".


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:19 am 
Offline
Starters Handicap

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:52 am
Posts: 681
Location: NE IL
Where is the 'like' button on here, skipitgirl. They call a grey a gr/ro on the pedigree, but for some reason it does not count if not a grey coloring base, like we have here with Oxbow and Skippy Chappy. Sure there has got to be more out there as well...

_________________
We will NEVER see another Ruffian......


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:10 am 
Offline
Breeder's Cup Winner
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:55 am
Posts: 2061
Location: west TX boonies
Skipitgirl wrote:
ILL CALL HIM A BAY ROAN :wink: Years ago my friend had a andalusian/TB mare. her sire was gray and her dam was bay. Celebrity never greyed out but had significant roaning throughout her coat and a skunk tail, looked alot like Lucky Chappy. No one will ever convince me the roan gene doesnt exist in TBs somewhere and some day the JC will recognize a true "roan".


Why not just call a rabicano a rabicano? That's what I'd call Lucky Chappy and Show Me the Moolah. Oxbow may be rabicano too. I don't see a skunk tail there but sometimes it's just a few white hairs at the base of the tail. The rabicano 'signature' is the skunk tail but they may have intense roaning all over, often most pronounced on flank & hindquarter. The genetic mechanism of rabicano is not yet identified. It doesn't involve the marker associated with "true roan" in other breeds and that marker has yet to be documented in the TB. Whatever genetic mechanism causes rabicano is definitely present in the TB gene pool and has been since the foundation stage.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:54 am 
Offline
Restricted Stakes Winner
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:03 am
Posts: 996
I would agree he could be rabicano, but there is NO white hair in his tail so I'm pretty sure something else is at work here. It's likely related to sabino. His dam is definitely not gray.

_________________
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:05 pm 
Offline
Yearling
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:38 am
Posts: 71
Location: Chicago
Oxbow is a bit of an anomaly in terms of colors. Until he's been DNA tested, the best we can say is he's a bay with extensive white ticking. Whether that ticking is the result of sabino, rabicano, or (a very unlikely) one-off mutation is impossible to clarify without pulling a few hairs for UC Davis to have a look at.

He is not grey or roan because both genes are dominant, and a horse must have at least one parent possessing that color in order to inherit it. (Oxbow's sire and dam are of course both ordinary bays.) The only true roans presently in the TB gene pool all descend from Catch A Bird who carried a one of a kind mutation, and as far as I know, the handful that exist have not left Australia. It seems possible that we'll find that roan has multiple source mutations like sabino and dominant white do. That would certainly go a long way to explaining the varying expressions of white ticking found. But it seems to be far less common.

Given how much white Tizamazing has, I would guess Oxbow's ticking is the result of sabino. Ticking is not uncommon with the sabino pattern, though usually it is accompanied by more leg and face white, at least in TBs. Sabino ticking with very little other white is often found in Morgans however. There are several on this page:

http://www.morgancolors.com/sabino.htm

Given the bit of white on Oxbow's lower lip (a common sabino indicator), and the all over ticking, even on his head, I'm pretty sure his unique coloration is an unusual expression of sabino. It's also possible that the ticking is a weird dispersion of rabicano hairs, but we have not yet been able to determine if rabicano is in fact separate from sabino. :) Also, not all rabicanos have skunk tails or at least not hugely noticeable ones, and skunk tails can be found on sabinos. :)

_________________
Equine Color Genetics Made Easy http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/equinecolor.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:10 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:14 pm
Posts: 646
Excellent post, Mumtaz! :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:32 pm 
Offline
Restricted Stakes Winner
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:03 am
Posts: 996
I didn't know you were a member here.

I think it's possible he could be a new roan mutation. Stranger things have happened. Highly, highly unlikely, but possible. Based on what I've seen of his tail, IMO there is no way he has that amount of roaning on the body and virtually no white in his tail at all and that be caused by rabicano. I think sabino is definitely the most likely culprit here, even though I agree it is unusual to see this much roaning with so little markings.

FWIW Awesome Again also has significant ticking, though not nearly to the extent of Oxbow.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6123/5931 ... 3e22_b.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-c1k3Migy0D8/T ... w-9498.jpg

_________________
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:51 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
mumtaz wrote:
The only true roans presently in the TB gene pool all descend from Catch A Bird who carried a one of a kind mutation, and as far as I know, the handful that exist have not left Australia.


Apropos Catch A Bird roans, enjoy these good examples already posted here:

Roguelet wrote:
The following pictures were copied here from a post in another thread made by "Color"

Lavender Fields - TB filly - bay roan
Image


Pink Floyd - TB colt - red roan
Image


Slip Catch - TB mare - bay roan
Image

Slip Catch had so far 4 roan offspring and I think everyone will agree that these are TRUE roans.


RiddleMeThis wrote:
Lavender Fields at her third trial
Image

After that day they decided she wasn't cut out to race.

FROM:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/post ... e&p=267757



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 7:20 am 
Offline
Yearling
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:38 am
Posts: 71
Location: Chicago
Wonderful pix, Jorge! I'm so happy that the Winning Colours Farm people stepped in and saved CAB's roan offspring.

_________________
Equine Color Genetics Made Easy http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/equinecolor.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:19 pm 
Offline
Breeder's Cup Winner

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:46 pm
Posts: 2212
While the phenotype of the Catch a Bird roans looks the same as the roan gene present in other breeds, it may not be. Clearly it is a new mutation--founder Catch a Bird, as the founder. My guess it is another KIT mutation, similar to traditional roan. This may be similar to the DW situation, with a number of distinct mutations lumped together.

What needs to happen is for one of the roan "girls" to produce a very fast running roan colt.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:05 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
Mumtaz,

Thanks for your comments and valuable postings.

What surprises me most on this fascinating topic
of the Catch A Bird "roans" is how after more than
200 years of its complete absense from the Breed,
now that it has re-appered (whether genotyped or phenotyped),
very very few breeders are showing any perceived
interest in trying to save this color for the benefice of
the Thoroughbred breed and the horse world.

Even more, the re-emergence of this coat color,
should obligue Thoroughbred authorities to tidily
re-assemble their actual "grey" and "roan"
definitions in order to make room for the solid reality
that is unfolding right before of our eyes.

As per the curious appearance of Oxbow's phenotype,
there seem to be no problem at all right now, unless
later on he begins throwing progeny of unique phenotype,
like it happened with Catch A Bird. At this moment, Oxbow
has to be defined as just another normal "bay" who happens
to be fashioning many dispersed white hair markings ("roanings").

Apropos the name of the avatar: "Mumtaz", it makes me recall the
very nice Mahmoud broodmare who produced from the cover
of the great Native Dancer, the one-race undefeated runner
Dancing Dervish who later sired the good runner Prince Astro.


DANCING DERVISH (grey h 1960) http://www.pedigreequery.com/dancing+dervish

Thanks again for your participation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 3:16 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
Here is a more revealing photo of Oxbow:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... t=1&ref=nf


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:09 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
Here is an even better close-up photo of Oxbow with his neck full of white "roaned" hairs like if he were genuine one.

http://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=es-4 ... B960%3B743


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:51 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
Jorge wrote:
Here are the cases I was referring to:

LUCKY CHAPPY photo already posted here:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/lucky+chappy

accphotography wrote:
That is as roaned as any "non roan" I have EVER, EVER seen!!!


BookieBuster wrote:
Here is another photo of LUCKY CHAPPY taken at Churchill Downs last week.

You can really see the white in his tail in this shot.


OXBOW photo: http://www.pedigreequery.com/oxbow3
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/hor ... kness.html

SWEET RETURN photo: http://www.pedigreequery.com/sweet+return
http://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=es-4 ... return-(gb)-112.html%3B700%3B559

SHOW ME THE MOOLAH photo: http://www.pedigreequery.com/show+me+the+moolah

http://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=es-4 ... wI#imgrc=_


While pondering on the possibility of a cross between a pair
of "roaned" equines such as OXBOW; LUCKY CHAPPY;
SWEET RETURN; and SHOW ME THE MOOLAH I realized
that all of these Thoroughbreds are males. Then the
following question came to mind. Can we mention and
provide evidence any mare whose phenotype is similar
to the aforementioned quartet so that a crossed can be
achieved? Would like to know if there is any ratio
of "roaned" males vis-a-vis "roaned" females.





texistence and phenotype
of OXBOW; LUCKY CHAPPY; SWEET RETURN;
and SHOW ME THE MOOLAH the following question


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:57 pm 
Offline
Allowance Winner
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:44 pm
Posts: 261
we have noticed that statistically..(so simply by numbers) appaloosa males tend to be louder marked than females!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group