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 Post subject: Sabino and rabicano TB?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Hi all, I bred a filly with some unusual coloring. I know nothing about color, so thought I might get some insight here! She is chestnut and has 4 white socks and a blaze, and just recently I have noticed a lot of white hairs appearing in her coat, predominantly on her flanks, but they are starting to appear in other areas too. She is by Wilburn, out of Venus Rosewater. Her dam is chestnut and has 2 white socks and a blaze. Will try to get some pictures uploaded. I heard there is no true roan in thoroughbreds, so is it rabicano?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:26 pm 
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when she was younger
Image

last month
Image

close up of the coat, sorry not very clear
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:50 pm 
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As far as I can see this is the pedigree of the equine we are referring to:

Roseburn (Chestnut c 2012) http://www.pedigreequery.com/roseburn2

His sire is: Wilburn (bay h 2008) http://www.pedigreequery.com/wilburn
His dam is: Venus Rosewater (chestnut mare 2005) http://www.pedigreequery.com/venus+rosewater

I don’t see any quite conspicuous name betraying
a very heavy sabino influence among the close
ancestors of this pedigree. BUT WAIT, that doesn’t
mean that this pedigree is completely free from the
probability of carrying various bona-fide sabino ancestors.

The fact is that this pedigree is carrying 6 remote doses
from Northern Dancer (and or Nearctic), along with the
presence of remote doses from Royal Charger and Tudor Minstrel makes such an occurrence, a real common possibility, not to say,
probability. When one encounter cases like this, the best
thing is to closely examine the phenotype of every close
ancestor you can check for hints betraying some unusual
mare or some unusual less-famous sire betraying traits
of sabino-ness.

In synthesis, I don’t see any unquestionable signs pointing
out to any blunt culprit(s), but obviously it seems very clear that various “under-the- radar” ancestors are playing significant roles
here. The aforementioned explanation I have exposed here is not that unusual with many many cases.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:59 am 
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What a beautiful filly! :)

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 Post subject: Sabino!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:09 pm 
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She definitely is sabino by the looks of her markings. Best way to see if she is sabino is by high leg markings that usually look jagged or roaned around the edges (above the knee is a good hint that she is a color carrier; sabino, splash, overo, frame overo), leg markings on front legs, possible roaning outlining any markings, and you do get your roaning around the flanks/belly with the less obvious sabinos. Rabicanos, though, have what some people call "skunk tail", which is white ticking/roaning of the tail hairs around the base of the tail and downward. She may be rabicano as well, but you usually have to wait a bit to let her colors really show. We didn't know one of our foals was a rabicano b/c of all that light baby fluff around the tail until after her tail started growing more.

She is a cute filly, and I like the minimal sabinos more than the maximum sabinos! Almost all of the completely white horses you see, the true whites, are actually maximum expressed sabino horses; your filly expresses sabino, but minimally. I, personally, don't like the loud sabino horses as much as the frame overos. The frame overo horses have more clear, prominent markings, where as loud sabinos just look like a jumbled mess to me...lol. But you can't judge a book by its color. I'm sure there is a sweet loud sabino somewhere in this world.


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 Post subject: True Roans Exist!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:29 pm 
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Also, I thought I might add a little quick comment...
Catch A Bird was the only Thoroughbred brindle horse I have ever heard of, and all of his offspring were either solid or roan. He was the first stallion to produce roan offspring in Thoroughbred history (as far as we can trace back). There is sabino, which Native Dancer seems to have been popular in passing, but Catch A Bird passed down a totally different mutation. Catch A Bird produced four true roan thoroughbreds, and the rest were solids with no significant markings or patterns. Odd Colours, Red Noble3, Slip Catch, and Goldhill Park are his only true roan offspring. Slip Catch was purchased by Winning Colours Farm in Australia and they are currently breeding quality roan, roan overo, frame overo, and dilute/double dilute thoroughbreds. The other three I have not done research on and do not currently know where they reside. I just thought I would let you know that the only pattern that I know of Thoroughbreds not having is Tobiano, Tovero, and Appaloosa-specific markings. Not sure if there are splash white TB's, so I won't say there is or isn't.
I do wish to ask that question though if you guys don't mind...
Does anyone know of any true splash white Thoroughbreds registered with the JC? I don't think there has been one yet...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:07 am 
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There are splash White TBs in New Zealand. TCF bought one and imported her. If I recall well the name was Whatever.

Also Sabino does not exist in the TB breeding, all that White is coming from different numbered W genes.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:18 pm 
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color wrote:
There are splash White TBs in New Zealand. TCF bought one and imported her. If I recall well the name was Whatever.

Also Sabino does not exist in the TB breeding, all that White is coming from different numbered W genes.


Thanks for the info on the splash mare!
But, there indeed is the sabino gene in the Thoroughbred breed. (one supporting link: http://www.horse-genetics.com/sabino-horses.html) Wikipedia is wrong again. It actually looks like the dam of this filly is a minimal sabino. Take a look at that high front stocking. You see the roaned outline? Horses with white on their front legs and face are also more apt to pass chrome to their offspring.
Take a look at some sabino Thoroughbreds (most of these are maximum expressed sabinos, but the second link will give you some more solid colored sabino foals and horses)...

http://www.whinnyfarms.com/matoskah.html (Matoskah)
http://www.crosscreeksporthorses.com/gallery.html (Many sabino TB's here!!)
http://www.norsirefarms.com/ourwhitelady.html
http://www.pedigreequery.com/allamystique

And if you want to learn a bit about Sabino, go to the links below!
http://www.horsetesting.com/sabino1.htm
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse/sabino1.php


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 Post subject: Re: True Roans Exist!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:21 pm 
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MattieCat wrote:
Also, I thought I might add a little quick comment...
Catch A Bird was the only Thoroughbred brindle horse I have ever heard of, and all of his offspring were either solid or roan. He was the first stallion to produce roan offspring in Thoroughbred history (as far as we can trace back). There is sabino, which Native Dancer seems to have been popular in passing, but Catch A Bird passed down a totally different mutation. Catch A Bird produced four true roan thoroughbreds, and the rest were solids with no significant markings or patterns. Odd Colours, Red Noble3, Slip Catch, and Goldhill Park are his only true roan offspring. Slip Catch was purchased by Winning Colours Farm in Australia and they are currently breeding quality roan, roan overo, frame overo, and dilute/double dilute thoroughbreds. The other three I have not done research on and do not currently know where they reside. I just thought I would let you know that the only pattern that I know of Thoroughbreds not having is Tobiano, Tovero, and Appaloosa-specific markings. Not sure if there are splash white TB's, so I won't say there is or isn't.
I do wish to ask that question though if you guys don't mind...
Does anyone know of any true splash white Thoroughbreds registered with the JC? I don't think there has been one yet...



There have been several brindle TBs including this yearling who sold this week in New Zealand to much recent comment: http://blog.pedigree-dynamics.com.au/20 ... z.html?m=1

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... hp?t=34586


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:21 am 
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Mattie,

there is only W in the Thoroughbred breed, they tested many of them and NO Sabino. Some people still write Sabino but it is not true and not right. I know this for sure as I am friends with one of the scientist of the recent research of the W gene.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:30 pm 
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There are actually quite a few splashed white TBs. I have photos of many. Not common in the entire population, no, but there are plenty of them out there.

At this time no Thoroughbred has ever tested positive for sabino. Now, whether they have or don't have an as yet untestable for of sabino, no one knows, but as of now they do not carry a known sabino variant. All of the pinto TBs and many of the more normal looking TBs have tested to either be dominant white (now being called just "White" or "W") or splash.

Maybe some day they will find a sabino variant in TBs, just not now.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:13 pm 
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I see. I just did some more in depth research, and although there are sabino looking TB's, there is a W5 or W10 gene that may throw that color I hear. I really want to have a sabino-looking TB tested now, just to see for myself. I believe that either of us could be right as of now, but I would like to get this kind of information from someone who has tested many sabino-looking TBs before; someone who may breed them, or may have bred them in the past.
I may be a bit stubborn, but I'm very interested in finding this out. The W gene and sabino genes must be very similar, but the W gene doesn't say anything about minimum expression like the sabino does; it just says usually completely white, or mostly white with patches...I don't know. She definitely has sabino characteristics, so I would be curious to see if she tests positive for sabino. I've talked to a few TB color breeders before, and almost all of them call the horses sabinos. There are many thoroughbreds out there that express sabino characteristics like any other breed of horse, so it is easily mistaken, and I could be wrong. If I am, than I accept that, but I would still like to know for sure without forum chatting. You guys certainly know what you are talking about, and I would love to see if I could prove you right. I might post back if I find more stuff out.
Thanks for making me get my butt up and do some more research on this, it is a very intriguing topic!!!

Also, I'm glad I learned that there are #1 more brindle TB's out there! #2 quite a few splash white TB's in this world!
Thank you guys again.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:48 am 
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Mattie,
a lot of my TBs and WBs that are Sabino looking have been part of this last rearch, in fact about 30. NONE has splash, altough looking Sabino and Splash and NONE has Sabino. But ALL have some sort of W genetics. Some that look just more flashy then other have been tested to be homozygous for W20 and the all White TBs have been found to be W5 and W20. Which has lead to the result that two different W genes can form an all White but two same W genes are only flashy looking. Hope this makes sense. There is as thread about this on the genetic part of the HGS Forum "dominant White" if you want to join there.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:41 pm 
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The reality is that the W genes and sabino are EXTREMELY similar both in phenotype AND genotype. Both are mutations of the KIT locus and both cause varying degrees of white. W can be *very* minimal. This little girl is W5 positive and just has a narrow blaze, the hind stockings and a little sock on the front left.

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She's not a standout. Many Ws are that minimal and some are completely white.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:18 am 
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Our ones (tbs)tested negative to the three current known splashed white genes.. however, one of them has a definite hearing impairment, so would be some sort of undiscovered splash.


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