Black color

Talk about equine color, markings, genetics, etc. Post pictures of flashy Thoroughbreds!

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Joltman
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Black color

Postby Joltman » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:05 pm

Provoking Cat is listed as a black horse and while I've noted a couple of them in the Form over the years, I'm wondering just how many are out there. Are they becoming less common? Are people misidentifying dark bays as black? just wonderin'

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madelyn
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Re: Black color

Postby madelyn » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:50 am

It has been my experience it is the other way around; ie: lots of black horses get registered as dark bay. I have not tried it but people have reported that it can be difficult to register a horse as black. The color might be "corrected" by the JC if they see a sliver of a brown hair anywhere in the registration photos. I have a mare in my barn, Callie Hermosa, who I believe is BLACK. She has no telltale mule muzzle or lighter hairs above the stifle. She was registered as dark bay. Her overcoat that is shedding out now had brown overtones which happens as the pigments in the winter coat fade after the coat dies and is being released. The real truth might be revealed once she foals in April since she was bred to my chestnut and chrome stallion, Thabit. If she throws a bay then they were right all along she is a dark bay. But if I get red or jet black.. well maybe the color conspirators can chime in here.
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aethervox
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Re: Black color

Postby aethervox » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:33 pm

Unless Thabit has been tested for the Agouti gene, you may get a bay, even if the mare is black.

Chestnuts can hide the Agouti gene, because it only acts on black pigment.

According to the coat color calculator at http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/CCalculator1.asp

the Offspring Color Probability is:

37.50% - Black
37.50% - Bay
25.00% - Red (Chestnut/Sorrel)

If you want to be sure of the mare's color, you'll have to get it tested. I know UC Davis does it - the info is at http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorhorse.php and you'd want the red factor/Agouti panel.

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madelyn
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Re: Black color

Postby madelyn » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:26 am

Thanks so much for the information! I think, though, I will just wait a week or so for the foal to come out. It's that time of year again!
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madelyn
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Re: Black color

Postby madelyn » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:53 am

Well I got 100% Black.. just a cute white star. Colt. He's really gorgeous. I think I might try to register him as black and see what happens. Since they get DNA in the DNA kit the JC should be able to also get the genetic color with the parentage, n'est ce pas?
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Re: Black color

Postby summerhorse » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:41 pm

Yes it used to be very difficult, you had to submit a vet report, photos from 100 angles and probably your first born to get it changed (as they very rarely registered anything as black, it was automatically dbbr. Then you had to PROVE it was black (see above!). Now though you can get a color test done (used to be $25 for simple agouti red/black but probably more now) and send them the test results and get them registered properly.
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Re: Black color

Postby erhrdt3 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:12 am

madelyn wrote:Well I got 100% Black.. just a cute white star. Colt. He's really gorgeous. I think I might try to register him as black and see what happens. Since they get DNA in the DNA kit the JC should be able to also get the genetic color with the parentage, n'est ce pas?



Hi Madelyn,

Hope you and yours are doing well! I would love to see a photo of that colt you have that is black. How lucky can you be?! And w/a star too.. Thabit is looking good, by looking at him you would never think he'd sire a black foal. If you have any photos, name, etc. can you post? I have a "thing" for black TB's. My horsie co-owner in Lexington had gone to the Keeneland sales a few years back and she knew I loved them, so she bought a black yearling filly. Raya turned out being the best runner we had, she would break great, and go wire to wire.
I'm sure you know they sun fade, so she would look sometimes as if she had sun tipped hairs on her. It's just not fair to leave them standing in a stall all day..

I would love if you could post a photo..thanks
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skeenan
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Re: Black color

Postby skeenan » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:40 am

Just saw this pretty girl pop up in my Facebook feed. She's registered BLK in the database.

http://www.newvocations.org/horseprofiles/susies-diamond/

https://www.pedigreequery.com/susies+diamond

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madelyn
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Re: Black color

Postby madelyn » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:39 am

Well I submitted the colt's registration with him being black but was "corrected" and now have a black colt registered as dark bay. I used to be able to post photos here from photobucket but now get a big red warning screen.. so I can't put a picture of him up right now.
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summerhorse
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Re: Black color

Postby summerhorse » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:34 pm

You have to get him dna tested (UC DAVIS) for Agouti and Extension to show he is black before they will register him as such. https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse/agouti.php Since the horse looks black you know he is E_, you only need to prove he is aa at Agouti. aaE_ would be a black horse. But if they were annoyingly picky this one tests for E/e https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/ho ... factor.php
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madelyn
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Re: Black color

Postby madelyn » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:00 am

Yeah well, that's a lot of extra work and cost. Provided the color/description is good enough to pass the horse ID and paddock judge it stays as is. The mare threw a big chestnut filly this year with three whites and a huge blaze. No bays as of yet.

Speaking of that I bought a Birdstone colt at November BS sale registered by Calumet as a grey. Well he's NOT. But he has a lot of roaning - silver hairs all over and white splotches on his front legs. I checked with registration services at the JC and they say he should be ok registered like that. He is really a dark bay but the roaning is significant. But not a grey. At all.
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ct2346
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Re: Black color

Postby ct2346 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:48 am

At what point do you think the roaning would take precedence and cause you to register the foal as gr/ro.? I have a filly, not yet weaned, that is Dk b/br. (close to black actually) in the head and shoulders, with significant neck roaning, and enough roaning to make her look gray in her flanks. I'm 50/50 on whether she's going to turn out to be a "regular" gray down the road. The sire is a now white gray himself. I have to register her soon and don't know which way I'm going to go....

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Re: Black color

Postby MattieCat » Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:22 am

Jockey Club registerable coat colors are almost entirely inaccurate from my experience, aside from the obvious grey, chestnut, and bay. Dark bays/browns and blacks are regularly misidentified. Cremellos, perlinos, smoky creams, buckskins, and smoky blacks, although evident genetically in the Thoroughbred breed through genetic testing, are listed according to the way the horse looks (oftentimes leading to inaccurate color assignments). Cremellos, perlinos, smoky creams, and palominos are all usually registered as palomino or white. Buckskins are registered as dark bays/browns or bays, and smoky blacks are registered as dark bays/browns or black. Blacks and dark bays/browns are almost interchangeable depending on the season. They go by the way the horse looks in the photos provided and usually pay no heed to color genetics.

I anticipate it costs money that the JC is unwilling to spend to add/modify colors in their rule book.

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madelyn
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Re: Black color

Postby madelyn » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:09 pm

ct2346 wrote:At what point do you think the roaning would take precedence and cause you to register the foal as gr/ro.? I have a filly, not yet weaned, that is Dk b/br. (close to black actually) in the head and shoulders, with significant neck roaning, and enough roaning to make her look gray in her flanks. I'm 50/50 on whether she's going to turn out to be a "regular" gray down the road. The sire is a now white gray himself. I have to register her soon and don't know which way I'm going to go....

I would register her as a grey/roan.
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