Resemblance 1823 - grey with non-grey parents?

[cissiny]

This mare was exported to France, registered as grey and I think that it is correct. She did have grey progeny with non-grey stallions in France.

But, since both her parents were non-grey (without any close ancestors that were grey, so I think that their colors is correct) there must be something wrong with her pedigree?
http://www.pedigreequery.com/resemblance5
Is it as "simple" as her sire is incorrect (any ideas about the correct sire in that case?) or is her dam wrong? I have seen a Williamsons Ditto mare out of an Arabian mare (have not checked the color of that one but grey is quite common in Arabians) but don't know if there is any connection?

In any case, there must be something wrong here... I'm sure that her color is correctly registered.

Thanks in advance,
Cissi

[Pan Zareta]

Resemblance was consistently recorded in the GSB as an 1823 "ro" (roan) filly x Gainsborough - Mare [Rawlinson's] x Williamson's Ditto. The note on her entry in the db here says she was also recorded as roan in the French Stud Book (1:358). I don't have that vol., so can't confirm.

*If* there is strong credible evidence for a true grey descendant of Resemblance, with no other source for grey in its pedigree, then Resemblance was probably attributed to the wrong sire and/or dam. Otherwise, the most plausible explanation is that she and one or more of her foals had the extensive roaning that may be seen with sabino or rabicano phenotypes.

[cissiny]

Thanks Pan Zareta!

Resemblance was consistently recorded in the GSB as an 1823 "ro" (roan) filly x Gainsborough - Mare [Rawlinson's] x Williamson's Ditto. The note on her entry in the db here says she was also recorded as roan in the French Stud Book (1:358). I don't have that vol., so can't confirm.

*If* there is strong credible evidence for a true grey descendant of Resemblance, with no other source for grey in its pedigree, then Resemblance was probably attributed to the wrong sire and/or dam. Otherwise, the most plausible explanation is that she and one or more of her foals had the extensive roaning that may be seen with sabino or rabicano phenotypes.

Here is the entry in Stud Book Francais vol I, page 207:

RESEMBLANCE

Ro (roan? they mostly write G=gris=grey otherwise?), born in Great Britain 1823.
Sire: Gainsborough
Dam: Williamson's Ditto Mare
Sire of Gainsborough: Rubens
Dam of Gainsborough: Tiny
Sire of Williamson's Ditto Mare: Williamson's Ditto
Dam of Williamson's Ditto Mare: Agnes

She arrived to Haras du Pin in 1829, in foal to Fungus. Sold in 1832. Foaling list in France:
1830 Edile by Fungus (no color listed)
1831 Camille (bay) by Eastham (brown)
1832 Crispine (grey) by Eastham (brown)
1833 foal by half-bred, color not listed
1834 Rubis (bay) by Sylvio (bay)
1835-36 barren
1837 Silhouette (brown) by Paradox (don't remember his color)

CRISPINE (1832 by Eastham) is also in the studbook as a broodmare, registered as G=gris=grey. Only foal in vol I is born 1837 and brown.

I'm checking volume II:

RESEMBLANCE - still registered as "Ro". Two unnamed foals 1838-39, both bay. Resemblance died at the end of 1839.

CRISPINE - still registered as "G". Had a bay foal in 1839.

I'll check volume III aswell, for Crispine:

CRISPINE - barren 1840-42, still registered as "G". I also found her in volume IV, had a foal in 1844 that was bay, she died the same year.

Well, it seems like the only evidence for Resemblance being grey/roan is through her daughter Crispine, who was registered as grey. But Crispine only had bay/brown foals?

There is absolutely a possibility that Resemblance was sabino/rabicano, it's a bit tricky with the term roan I think... I mostly use grey. I love "color roans" (i.e. blue roans etc) but it's completely different from greys of course... And the term "roaning" is quite tricky too... I've seen that mostly in sabinos but I know that it can be connected to rabicanos aswell... (Off topic - but I recently had to explain to a friend that her foal was "unfortunately" not piebald/skewbald/pinto, just a sabino as his dam)

Well, I hope I did not write too much?

Best wishes,
Cissi

[Pan Zareta]

There is absolutely a possibility that Resemblance was sabino/rabicano, it's a bit tricky with the term roan I think... I mostly use grey. I love "color roans" (i.e. blue roans etc) but it's completely different from greys of course... And the term "roaning" is quite tricky too... I've seen that mostly in sabinos but I know that it can be connected to rabicanos aswell...

It's impossible to see in a small photo but the TB mare in my avatar is a rabicano with extensive roaning.

Nowadays we're aware that grey, true roan, and roaning are separate traits due to different genetic mechanisms. Two hundred years ago or so there were just horses with varying degrees of white hair intermixed with the base coat colour, some of whom eventually turned completely "white" (actually grey, of course). In North America there were no published standards for reporting coat colour until the very late 1890s. In the earliest vols. of the American Stud Book it's not at all uncommon to find "roan" and "grey" applied differently than they would be in contemporary usage. Personally, I wouldn't even pencil in a question mark next to Resemblance's pedigree unless some evidence in addition to Crispine turns up.

[cissiny]

Thanks again, Pan Zareta!

Well, it seems like I jumped to conclusions... When I posted this thread, I was just at the beginning of the vol I French stud book, gone through the stallions and starting on the mares alphabetically. Found Crispine and that was the reason for my suspicion that the pedigree of Resemblance was wrong. Did not check the following volumes.

I am not that familiar with rabicanos, not that common here, but sabinos I know very well. One of the most extreme cases I've seen was my welsh cob that I had in the mid/late 80'ies, did not look like the chestnut he was. At that time he was 16-17 and his huge blaze and four white stockings had blended into his extremely roaning color, and his mane and tail were more or less greyish... When I visited him at age 26, noone would describe him as just a chestnut...

So - I am guessing that Resemblance was "roaning", sabino or rabicano, most likely I'd say that she and Crispine (based on pedigree and foals) were probably bay or brown with roaning? Pedigree is probably correct.

Thanks again

Cissi in Sweden